Is PoE suffering from poor game design choices?

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anubite a écrit :

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allbusiness a écrit :

stuff

LoL/DOTA/SOURCE/TF2/CS/Most Games: Client is playing catch-up to server
PoE: Server is playing catch-up to client

This is the fundamental difference between Source and PoE.

Maybe it's oversimplified, but it basically makes any of your comparisons pointless. Valve and PoE can't be using the same optimizations, not if they are this fundamentally different. The server never "knows" stuff about the client until the client's already done it, for PoE; for Valve games, the server KNOWS what the client did because it authorized it.

The difference between playing Tf2 and PoE is night and day. If I lag in TF2, my game grinds to a bloody halt. Baseballs stand in the air and my minigun spins even if I'm not holding M2. In POE, if the game is lagging, I won't even know it until I'm rubber banding half-way across the map. Ideally, I won't even notice that there was resyncing.

You're not even reading.


Valve runs the same exact server/client structure in order to facilitate a seamless action experience. Battlefield 3/4 runs the same thing for their hit detection. If they didn't, you wouldn't get solid hit detection and it would be delayed to kingdom come. You'd be able to shoot 4 feet behind someone and still kill him (which occasionally still does happen, but not very common unless you and the other person are lagging heavily, which again is a resync issue).


In terms of hit detection and movement, the client is able to make predictions based on the rules that are deemed fair by the server. If any of them violate this, the client is forced to correct itself. This is in order to create a better action experience with minimal delay. This is exactly how GGG does it in Path of Exile also.


If you coded Source Mods you would know this, so I'm gonna call absolute bullshit on you having any modding experience.


Here, let me bold it for you since you can't fucking be bothered to read.


A delay between player input and corresponding visual feedback creates a strange, unnatural feeling and makes it hard to move or aim precisely. Client-side input prediction (cl_predict 1) is a way to remove this delay and let the player's actions feel more instant. Instead of waiting for the server to update your own position, the local client just predicts the results of its own user commands. Therefore, the client runs exactly the same code and rules the server will use to process the user commands. After the prediction is finished, the local player will move instantly to the new location while the server still sees him at the old place.


And before you go on and say that is a client side command, guess what, cl_predict 1 is set as the default, and most major servers will force your client to utilize cl_predict 1.

some snippage

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GeorgAnatoly a écrit :

When I read about the new chisel recipe last night I had to ask myself, 'Are the developers somewhat... lacking in intellect or foresight or are they somewhat apathetic in how various decisions will affect the game?' It took me and, what I assume, many others literally seconds to realize that recipe was simply an idea the should have been scrapped and something else more pragmatic to achieve the same goal thought of in its place. But you have to assume they did the development of that recipe with thought and intent which just circles me back to the question, are the people responsible for that recipe's implementation, forgive me but, stupid?

What would you suggest for a chisel recipe instead? Or are you saying that there should not be a chisel recipe?

I can see where there would be some devaluation of chisels, but if GGG wants to boost map returns to players then a cheap chisel recipe would do it and help both solo players and group players. I don't really see this as a loss for the community as a whole.

The downside I do see is that it would dry up the pool of entry/low level maps and eliminate most, if not almost all of the public map games where new players could learn the ropes of mapping (and discover where they need to shore up their character build).

Maybe GGG could have a Blessed orb + Hammer + Whetstone stack yield a chisel?

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DalaiLama a écrit :

some snippage

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GeorgAnatoly a écrit :

When I read about the new chisel recipe last night I had to ask myself, 'Are the developers somewhat... lacking in intellect or foresight or are they somewhat apathetic in how various decisions will affect the game?' It took me and, what I assume, many others literally seconds to realize that recipe was simply an idea the should have been scrapped and something else more pragmatic to achieve the same goal thought of in its place. But you have to assume they did the development of that recipe with thought and intent which just circles me back to the question, are the people responsible for that recipe's implementation, forgive me but, stupid?

What would you suggest for a chisel recipe instead? Or are you saying that there should not be a chisel recipe?

I can see where there would be some devaluation of chisels, but if GGG wants to boost map returns to players then a cheap chisel recipe would do it and help both solo players and group players. I don't really see this as a loss for the community as a whole.

The downside I do see is that it would dry up the pool of entry/low level maps and eliminate most, if not almost all of the public map games where new players could learn the ropes of mapping (and discover where they need to shore up their character build).

Maybe GGG could have a Blessed orb + Hammer + Whetstone stack yield a chisel?

I welcome any and all constructive snippage like this :).

Firstly; I honestly don't know with the current chisel recipe what their intent with it is so I can't really give advice about how to better achieve whatever it is they meant to. But 2 quick solutions come to mind, simply increase chisel drop rates or remove them from the game like they did with map size and just adjust maps to have like a default 7% quality or something similar.

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DalaiLama a écrit :

What would you suggest for a chisel recipe instead?

Vendoring maps for chisel shards seems a good idea.

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DalaiLama a écrit :

some snippage

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GeorgAnatoly a écrit :

When I read about the new chisel recipe last night I had to ask myself, 'Are the developers somewhat... lacking in intellect or foresight or are they somewhat apathetic in how various decisions will affect the game?' It took me and, what I assume, many others literally seconds to realize that recipe was simply an idea the should have been scrapped and something else more pragmatic to achieve the same goal thought of in its place. But you have to assume they did the development of that recipe with thought and intent which just circles me back to the question, are the people responsible for that recipe's implementation, forgive me but, stupid?

What would you suggest for a chisel recipe instead? Or are you saying that there should not be a chisel recipe?

I can see where there would be some devaluation of chisels, but if GGG wants to boost map returns to players then a cheap chisel recipe would do it and help both solo players and group players. I don't really see this as a loss for the community as a whole.

The downside I do see is that it would dry up the pool of entry/low level maps and eliminate most, if not almost all of the public map games where new players could learn the ropes of mapping (and discover where they need to shore up their character build).

Maybe GGG could have a Blessed orb + Hammer + Whetstone stack yield a chisel?

blessed orb? ive found more exalts+divines than blessed orbs! for each blessed i find 20 chaos..

this new recipe has one limiting factor that most 'rich' people cant see - 4 whetstones. it might seem trivial but whetstones arent that common and WERE cheap up to this point just because they had limited use in long term leagues. you change weapons only so frequently and there is no need to buy scrolls with them as in case of races. after a year+ of playing and picking what i can im sitting on ~300whetsones. this means 75 chisles == ~18maps. people will soon run out of whetstones

this more than anything stimulates economy and artificially increases an orb price (as with baubles). sad part is the chore of picking up the hammers..

Some snippage:

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Hilbert a écrit :

The Materiasystem as skillsystem would be a good idea but it was huge flaws.

Materia wasn't tied to colors, it affected stats. In terms of ARPG it might have been a good idea to adapt a gem system like in D2. For example Heavy Strike in a Weapon working differently in than in a shield/helmet.

Color could have been used as compability test to award boni or add mali, such as socketing a blue gem in a green/red socket would have the opposite effect of quality.

I respect your PoE game experience, but I disagree with some of the ideas.
This one for instance, would be very bad for a lot of players, as it would drastically limit the diversity of builds. Characters using one handed weapons would never be able to gain the full advantage of 6 linked weapon skills for instance.

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Hilbert a écrit :

The biggest issue is gem leveling itself imo. Instead being tied to the character level you must level the gems and that form of Asia Grinding is a deadly sin.
Several gems are only available in A3x. Some gems only in merciless the class rewards repeat themselves at some point. So if you want to change a build you must buy a gem or start from nothing.

Especially the 3 Grindgems are something that shouldn't exist at all.

I don't see gem leveling as a problem. It helps limit the "Hand Me Down" effect where high level characters simply throw stuff to low level characters who then gain a huge boost. Yes, there are still very nice leveling items. Unless someone takes the time to create several different level versions, the lower level character won't get the same boost that they otherwise would.

The "grind" gems are rewards for players that are willing to spend some time on their character. There is nothing wrong with that style of play. Some players may not enjoy it, but it is no more "wrong" than players who like to play hardcore and make new characters every time an existing one dies. Timmy Johnny Spike, not Spike Spike Spike.

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Hilbert a écrit :

Instead of having common drops like gold--->Shards and Orbs, Orbs are quiet rare.
Compared other games it takes far more time to craft a magic item and even far more time to craft a rare item.

The issue is that big that PoE doesn't have got a risk reward and several HP Defense changes on higher difficulties make it better to farm low difficulties for currency.
The gamedesign chose the ASIAGRINDER as option. A really short lived genre.

Players who read about PoE think crafting will be great but will leave once they find out it's a trade simulator and crafting is nothing but frustration because you have only some currency items and most crafts are failures.

That one part I would heavily change in a user code league. Common currency many itemmods.
High Range mods in the same class such as 1-400ed instead of 150-200 since there also should be rarer currency and the goal of players should be to craft+find the perfect item not to trade or RMT the perfect item.

Quarl should realize by now that this is a disaster if you read the last Diamond Newsletter you see that Diamondsupporters all design items like 40-100% Quartuple Res 100-200 life high defense/damage.

The fact that players mostly like to design top notch optimal items does not reflect poor game design, so much as it reflects people's natural tendency to have the best. An example of this is found in supermodels. Where are the chubby, wrinkled, liver-spotted super models and why aren't they in high demand? It surely isn't because the fashion industry makes poor super model choices.

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Hilbert a écrit :

Sure from my point of view I would allow such items and add a drawback. PnP RPGs did it in a clever way.

For example BG2 had an easter egg armor+weapons if you gave golden, silver and bronze pants to a smith he forged The Big Metal unit which was the strongest Armor of the entire game and id added fast attacking crossbow items with infinite ammo.

But it had a big Drawback.
By the time you received the big Metalunit it turned you into an IronGolem and ironically in a part of the game where you have to go through small doors. The result was that you had to remove the armor after combat to pass through a door.

I would add such drawbacks to such items too such as 200% increased character size, Armor can only be removed in town, -100% Running Speed. Such a thing would make an edge case out of a powerful armor again. It would be excellent in a map like dried lake but it would be horrible in a map like crypt.

Not every item with nice boosts needs a perfectly balanced drawback.

For example - imagine if every person who placed in the top 100 in a race had their characters run speed reduced by 50% for the next 5 races to "balance" the races out. A lot of it comes down to playing style. Skill is valuable and should count, but just as in the real world, persistance and proclivity trump skill on a regular basis.

I do think that crafting needs to be more rewarding, and I think a limited incrementa and/or controlled boost to crafting odds would help. For example, each time you used an alch on a scoured item, there might be a 1% less chance to get bottom tier mods - up to -25% chance max.

I understand that a lot of players think skill challenge would they think of hardcore and don't consider time put in. IMO - serious hardcore is a matter of both. Not wanting to put in some serious time to achieve goals isn't really hardcore. For example - Thinking that you should be able to be a professional soccer player without ever exercising.

Yes, a measure of knowledge and reflexes are important, but you also have to put the workout time in to have a body that can compete against the other soccer players.

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sidtherat a écrit :

blessed orb? ive found more exalts+divines than blessed orbs! for each blessed i find 20 chaos..

this new recipe has one limiting factor that most 'rich' people cant see - 4 whetstones. it might seem trivial but whetstones arent that common and WERE cheap up to this point just because they had limited use in long term leagues. you change weapons only so frequently and there is no need to buy scrolls with them as in case of races. after a year+ of playing and picking what i can im sitting on ~300whetsones. this means 75 chisles == ~18maps. people will soon run out of whetstones

this more than anything stimulates economy and artificially increases an orb price (as with baubles). sad part is the chore of picking up the hammers..

I always manage to find a few blessed orbs with most characters by merciless, say maybe 3-5 of them.

I've noticed that while leveling characters in their optimal areas that a lot of quality items drop - so getting armor shards and whetstones isn't really a problem - provided the player is willing to trek back and forth to town a lot.

For poor players who either don't know or don't want to play "optimal" this gives another alternative to Alt/Fusing farming.

I hadn't thought of it till you mentioned the hammer. What a great way to slow down those you know what players that aren't really players or people.

Hammers don't stack, and they can't do a WTS 100 hammers, because of the limits on trade window size. They could farm for all the ingredients separately, but then the hammer would still limit them a bit. Plus, the fact that anyone can create chisels on thier own would limit chisel prices and discourage those that aren't here to play the game but profit off it.

If GGG made it a couple two handed mauls it would be even better, but would hurt real players who don't want to buy stash pages.

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This one for instance, would be very bad for a lot of players, as it would drastically limit the diversity of builds. Characters using one handed weapons would never be able to gain the full advantage of 6 linked weapon skills for instance.

Nothing prevents a change in the linking system. For example count Shield and 1h Weapon as entity.
You can roll 6 linked shields and 1h weapons for special builds like Facebreaker or Fencerbuilds(1h sword no shield for example)
Once you equip a shield and a 1h weapon you could add a system based on the main hand and gems
3 socket and 3 link weapons have no change. If you put gems into 1h weapon and shield it only counts the first 3 sockets if the items got 4+ sockets.

If you put no gems in the second slot the additional sockets of the primaryslot move to the 2nd slot(1h weapon or shield)
There is no problem behind this.
In fact that would open 1h builds, with skills that are only useable if you don't use a 1h weapon and no seconddary slot.

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I don't see gem leveling as a problem. It helps limit the "Hand Me Down" effect where high level characters simply throw stuff to low level characters who then gain a huge boost. Yes, there are still very nice leveling items. Unless someone takes the time to create several different level versions, the lower level character won't get the same boost that they otherwise would.

The "grind" gems are rewards for players that are willing to spend some time on their character. There is nothing wrong with that style of play. Some players may not enjoy it, but it is no more "wrong" than players who like to play hardcore and make new characters every time an existing one dies. Timmy Johnny Spike, not Spike Spike Spike.

The dev desired timeinvestment in this game is a huge design flaw and leads to RMT.

CB had 1/6 of the current time investment.
And throwing gems to lower characters is only an option for players, willing to create several higher characters(have fun investing several 1000 hours) or let characters rot at some level.

A game isn't fun if you are forced to grind simple spots for upgrades.
Also those merciless low level gems aren't better than other gems, so why not put them to an appreciate level.
There was a time when elemental hit was a glyph reward. Why not putting it back as sins reward?

I consider a system "Beat the game several times to receive each game for sure" quiet stupid.
Sure gems might drops. But name another game that forces you to finish the game several times to use all skills.

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The fact that players mostly like to design top notch optimal items does not reflect poor game design, so much as it reflects people's natural tendency to have the best.

Do you know how the first Diamond uniques looked like?!
Mahori was the first Diamond unique abusing certain mechanics looking overpowered.

Chin Sol once was an Endgame viable Bow!

GGG made poor design such as the addition of Gearcheck mechanics, which created the need of such items or a gameplay of "never get hit" aka Blind and Freeze became a must be in mapping.

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An example of this is found in supermodels. Where are the chubby, wrinkled, liver-spotted super models and why aren't they in high demand? It surely isn't because the fashion industry makes poor super model choices.

You vision is really limited then. Do you really believe there is a demand for more models?
The shows you see are only still alive because the companies aren't bancrupt yet because perfume and other cosmetics invest money.
There are more than enough advertisement models for catalogues or ads(if it isn't an actor)

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Not every item with nice boosts needs a perfectly balanced drawback.

Did you even read the newsletter.
The supporter send in designideas of items stronger than the perfect rare.

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I do think that crafting needs to be more rewarding, and I think a limited incrementa and/or controlled boost to crafting odds would help. For example, each time you used an alch on a scoured item, there might be a 1% less chance to get bottom tier mods - up to -25% chance max.

No there are also several undesired high tier mods. So you need more currency you don't have.
To kill RMT, to make the game better currency must be common.

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I understand that a lot of players think skill challenge would they think of hardcore and don't consider time put in. IMO - serious hardcore is a matter of both.

No hardcore timeinvestment is no lifing.
There is nothing hardcore in running docks or catacombs to find maps/currency/craftingredient.
You see that RMT aka shortcuts is quiet active here and the reason it's active is because of game design flaws.

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Thinking that you should be able to be a professional soccer player without ever exercising.

It's football only countries being bad in football call it soccer. ;)

Do you really believe professional sport is about exercise and will power?
Each body has certain constitution and therefore its limits. Professional sports are full of doping to get past those limits.
Do you really believe a nation with 168cm avg will ever be good in basketball?
Look at 100m Sprint. No matter how hard you try the majority will never run under 10sec because their body isn't suited for it, even if they use doping.

And in terms of Gaming PoE is nowhere close becoming an esports game.

Sports, Discoveries etc. is mainly about talent.
For example I am a higher class chess player, but yet I have next no chance against Top professionals who can adapt into different situations really fast. In 100 matches I would possibly win less than 10.
On the other side I am a better player against AIs than Professionals because I have talent finding out how a script works and after some losses my win is guaranteed because I figured out the weaknesses of an AI.

PoE isn't different than any Asiagrinder and that's why there are huge player declines.

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reflexes are important

No they are not every human has got the same reflexes, unless some nerves are cut.
You talk about reactiontime.

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anubite a écrit :

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symban a écrit :

The effect of lag with 9 other players in same place in LoL is nothing compared to regular desynch you get in PoE playing on your own.

Also I have less than 50ms in PoE yet get desynch with almost every Whirling Blades, while in LoL 50ms means absolutely perfect game with no problem at all regardless of what skill I or others use.

PoE is definitely doing something wrong.

You didn't read anything that I wrote.

LoL vs PoE is a major design decision. LoL says, "lol we will have 10 clients in a game and maybe three or six dozen minion units fighting on a tiny map at any one time" - they also don't care if you're playing with 200+ ms to the server -- the game is coded so that you CANNOT make ANY ACTION until the server says you can. Your action is sent to the server, the server verifies you can make that action, and then you do it. That's why you can feel half a second delay in your actions.

PoE says, "lol we will have up to twelve clients in a game (technically speaking, you could have two player parties in cutthroat trying to kill each other) and maybe several hundred enemies in a map at once, nevermind projectile entieis, aura entities, et cetera" - PoE was designed from a garage in NZ, where server access was minimal, they had to design the game at 200 ping themselves, so they needed a system that was still fluid and responsive at high ping. They also played D2 and said to themselves, "Man, it sure is frustrating to die and be like, "But the server gave me a second to half second delay! Without that shit, I would have lived!" So, they designed a system that would let users move instantly or make actions whenever they wanted to. The cost is of course, desync.

No you did not read and understand what I wrote. I understand the difference between PoE and LoL mechanics. What I am saying is that;

LoL has very smooth and reactive combat even with playing with an ADCs like Lucian or Vayne who can have 2,5 attack per sec, you can micromanage you mobility skills and keep fighting while 9 other players are doing the same. And there WONT BE ANY LAG or DESYNCH. None whatsoever, unless your connections sucks already. 50ms is more than enough to have completely smooth gameplay in LoL.

PoE on the otherhand, can not even manage to keep in synch playing on your own with 50ms. You can claim all you want PoE has instant reaction and everything. The fact stays that PoE does not work. You can not use that immediate reaction to improve your gameplay. The opposite you have to play in a way that is much less reactive to avoid desynch.

LoL reaction speed is good enough, and more importantly it DOES work to let you do anything game has to offer, which involved %100 of things PoE claim to be unique and reason for desynch in the manifesto.

Avoiding projectiles by moving around, disengaging in melee, getting behind obstacles/walls/trees/minion to block the incoming projectile, all sorts of mobility skills. They all work perfectly in LoL and the lag you claim is so insignificant that you can record team engagements where 10 players move around to avoid attacks/spells and dish out their own where 0.35 second mistake matters. When you watch that record you see that all players are in perfect control of the action. This kind of gameplay is what I expect from PoE.

PS: dont give the excuse of PoE being from an indie company, because so is LoL. PoE sucks in desynch and command response not because lack of funds, but because of bad design decisions.

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symban a écrit :

PS: dont give the excuse of PoE being from an indie company, because so is LoL. PoE sucks in desynch and command response not because lack of funds, but because of bad design decisions.

Not only, there are many many things that could be optimized.
There are obvious client side things that could be upgraded :

- check the range of the monsters/player from a totem/monster/player that provides him an aura, and if he's too far away = he desynced => resync.
- when a player/monster takes dmg from a source, check the source, the range, and if there is an impossible result = desynced => resync.

Those are just basic example, there are tons of check that could be done client side to optimize the whole thing.
I don't even know if they implemented something to resync only some given entities not to overload the flow/server, or if they use a perimeter or so, but seriously, if the player can see a desync through the client, that means that GGG could definitely implement client side methods to force resync at adequate times.

But since the whole game has memory leak and optimization issues, maybe they can't do it because it's already too resources consuming .... who knows.

This game is great, but let's be honest : optimization-wise it is HORRIBLE.