Is PoE suffering from poor game design choices?

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anubite a écrit :

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What? League of Legends and DotA 2 both have lag compensation built in. It's not perfect, but that's simply due to a logistics issue more than anything.

Please try playing either game with 200-250 ms ping, I don't believe you can say this with a straight face - these games, when played seriously anyway, are almost unplayable after you hit that mark. I don't actually believe you've ever done this.

Hi, I'm not him but I've been playing Dota 2 (Previously DotA) for around 4-5 years now and I've always had between 100 and 400 ping. You learn to live with it after a while. Unlike desync. And also, 50 ms does not equal half a second.

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anubite a écrit :

Please try playing either game with 200-250 ms ping, I don't believe you can say this with a straight face - these games, when played seriously anyway, are almost unplayable after you hit that mark. I don't actually believe you've ever done this.

Even on high speed internet connections in the US (a , the average ping for those users is probably 100 ms~ because the servers for the US are located in Texas for PoE.

I guess you got no idea what you are talking about. I played myself from EU on the US servers and was fine with a ping of 200. I also watched Pros on streams from the US playing on EU server and they also did fine. You consider yourself a decent player, but yes, just blame it on the "lag".

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anubite a écrit :

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What? League of Legends and DotA 2 both have lag compensation built in. It's not perfect, but that's simply due to a logistics issue more than anything.

Please try playing either game with 200-250 ms ping, I don't believe you can say this with a straight face - these games, when played seriously anyway, are almost unplayable after you hit that mark. I don't actually believe you've ever done this.

I used to play a game called asheron's call on 56k dial up back in 1999, I never would've dreamed of being able to get a ping as low as 200ms. The game was a mmorpg with hundreds of thousands of players and mapped individual spell particles so that they could be dodged manually (ring spells, spreading volleys of bolts, etc). I could have hundreds of creatures attacking me at once and overall it was fairly close to what you could call a hardcore 3d action mmorpg...



Never was remotely as bad as what I experience regularly here and my ping is often sub 30ms now compared to like 300-400 ms on dialup back in 1999 and that game overall moved a LOT faster, had far more pathing through a 3d environment, still had a similar action style combat and a lot more things moving at once.... and it was still pretty much cheat-free.

I would love to see only rebalance and polishing changes for a few months.
New skills are cool but I think working on existing problems is more important than bringing new stuff.

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anubite a écrit :

"

What? League of Legends and DotA 2 both have lag compensation built in. It's not perfect, but that's simply due to a logistics issue more than anything.

Please try playing either game with 200-250 ms ping, I don't believe you can say this with a straight face - these games, when played seriously anyway, are almost unplayable after you hit that mark. I don't actually believe you've ever done this.

Even on high speed internet connections in the US (a , the average ping for those users is probably 100 ms~ because the servers for the US are located in Texas for PoE.

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LoL has very smooth and reactive combat even with playing with an ADCs like Lucian or Vayne who can have 2,5 attack per sec, you can micromanage you mobility skills and keep fighting while 9 other players are doing the same. And there WONT BE ANY LAG or DESYNCH. None whatsoever, unless your connections sucks already. 50ms is more than enough to have completely smooth gameplay in LoL.

Symban, if you needed 50 ms to play PoE flawlessly (there is even around 0.25-0.5~ s input lag at 50 ms in LoL [this is what 50 ms fucking means], if you don't feel it you need to get your eyes checked) it would probably be unplayable for 80% of consumers and still ocassionally frustrating for the other 20%. 200 ms is a respectable connection in a lot of countries where servers are not diversified; 200 ms is hardly a 'crappy' connection (though it's not stellar). I hope you aren't in the business of designing games with this philosophy; you'll have a product fail harder than PoE at networking.

Anyway, I better STFU about all this stuff. Nobody is communicating at this point. I'm too frustrated to make any further discussion -- and I'd rather not be put on probation. Good day.

You do realize that before things like list checker, people had to deal with playing with a built in 200-250 ms delay in WC3 right? You act like the game is absolutely unplayable. It's not. People have played with 200+ ping in various games all the time, and its perfectly fine. Otherwise, online competition between U.S. vs EU would basically be impossible.


You clearly have 0 game knowledge about DotA 2 or League of Legends, and you clearly have no idea about the Source Engine in general and how movement and hit detection work (you believe that everything is done server side when it is not). Basically, you've proven how much of a blind fanboy you are and how ignorant you are about other games in general, and have demonstrated that you are not hardcore in the slightest. The reason why you say you're 'leaving this argument' is that you've been absolutely trashed in the argument. I have factually proven that Source in fact does not work in server = > client in all aspects, and in fact various aspects of the Source engine works with a client = > server communication with the server waiting on the client, and desync almost never occurs (it rarely does).


The reason why people used to feel delay is because setups used to be absolutely inferior, especially on a LCD setup. People used to have massive input delay of 5ms delay or more, when coupled with other factors of delay such as ping, it makes it very obvious that it is unplayable. Today, pings of 100 are very playable due to the fact that input delay is been absolutely minimized to the point where it is minuscule, so your only real delay is the delay between you and the server. And saying that 50 ms is garbage ping is hilarious, especially when you consider that the human body cannot possibly react to anything below 200 ms. Even when we take things like anticipation and learning of patterns into play, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would agree you could react to things within 100 ms.

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anubite a écrit :

"

What? League of Legends and DotA 2 both have lag compensation built in. It's not perfect, but that's simply due to a logistics issue more than anything.

Please try playing either game with 200-250 ms ping, I don't believe you can say this with a straight face - these games, when played seriously anyway, are almost unplayable after you hit that mark. I don't actually believe you've ever done this.

I have for 2 years. Live in sydney, forced to play LoL on USWest servers. Played competitively at the beginning as well.

Before, that, my entire DotA (wc3), had to play on UsWest servers sometimes, again that was 200-220 ms ping

Its somewhat noticable difference, but it can be accounted for, and definitely playable. Its also still much better than desync. Original Australian pro teams competed with this ping in DotA btw

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anubite a écrit :

Symban, if you needed 50 ms to play PoE flawlessly (there is even around 0.25-0.5~ s input lag at 50 ms in LoL [this is what 50 ms fucking means], if you don't feel it you need to get your eyes checked) it would probably be unplayable for 80% of consumers and still ocassionally frustrating for the other 20%. 200 ms is a respectable connection in a lot of countries where servers are not diversified; 200 ms is hardly a 'crappy' connection (though it's not stellar). I hope you aren't in the business of designing games with this philosophy; you'll have a product fail harder than PoE at networking.

Your wrong here, 80% of consumers would have ~1-70 ping. Anyone in America, by virture of being in America, with a fixed landline, is going to fall in that range, because PoE has a server on the east and westcost. Anyone in Australia is going to fall in that range. The only gap missing here would be far east Europe (i.e. Russia) and Japan, and that just requires PoE to put up one extra server, as they did in Australia. Anyone in the Malaysia/Singapore area is going to have like 20ms of ping.

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anubite a écrit :

Anyway, I better STFU about all this stuff. Nobody is communicating at this point. I'm too frustrated to make any further discussion -- and I'd rather not be put on probation. Good day.

Then you shouldn't argue about something you don't know about

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anubite a écrit :

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LoL has very smooth and reactive combat even with playing with an ADCs like Lucian or Vayne who can have 2,5 attack per sec, you can micromanage you mobility skills and keep fighting while 9 other players are doing the same. And there WONT BE ANY LAG or DESYNCH. None whatsoever, unless your connections sucks already. 50ms is more than enough to have completely smooth gameplay in LoL.

Symban, if you needed 50 ms to play PoE flawlessly (there is even around 0.25-0.5~ s input lag at 50 ms in LoL [this is what 50 ms fucking means], if you don't feel it you need to get your eyes checked) it would probably be unplayable for 80% of consumers and still ocassionally frustrating for the other 20%. 200 ms is a respectable connection in a lot of countries where servers are not diversified; 200 ms is hardly a 'crappy' connection (though it's not stellar). I hope you aren't in the business of designing games with this philosophy; you'll have a product fail harder than PoE at networking.

Anyway, I better STFU about all this stuff.

Yes you do actually better STFU about all this stuff. Because you are damn so wrong about all you are saying.

First of all 50ms is NOT 0.5 second. It is 0.05 second.

Second you better get your brain checked if you think a game with 200ms would be unplayable, because I have been playing WoW, WC3, DotA with 200-300 ms absolutely fine, and so DID many others. In a modern time like this if a game like PoE can not run smoothly even with amazing connection like 30ms, then it fails on its netcode. It is that simple.



If all the fanboys really wanted the best for PoE and GGG they would stop their BS defense for desynch and command response issues PoE has; so that GGG would have an actual drive to save this game with amazing potential.

At the moment only auto-piloting builds can do well in PoE, reactive responsive high mobility builds does not work. It saddens me to see PoE in Xfire going from 4k to barely 1k. If GGG worked their netcode out there is no reason for it not reaching 50k constant like LoL.

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symban a écrit :

First of all 50ms is NOT 0.5 second. It is 0.05 second.

Yup, believe it or not, in the real world we have to deal with physics, and whether you are on fibre connection or copper connection, electrons/protons will travel at (almost) the speed of light.

So in other words, if you have landline connection (TODAY), that is ADSL2/Cable/Fiber/vDSL, in the same country that the server is on, you are going to have a ping of 5-70MS, which is 0.005s to 0.07s delay on inputs. Its only when you start going into 100MS (0.01 seconds) that you start noticing any sought of delay

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deteego a écrit :

The only gap missing here would be far east Europe (i.e. Russia) and Japan, and that just requires PoE to put up one extra server, as they did in Australia. Anyone in the Malaysia/Singapore area is going to have like 20ms of ping.

i live in similar area and i'm perfectly fine with 40-50ping. it seems that colocation is in Germany or Sweden by the looks of things (similar pings to games with servers that i know are located there). it is too low for Iceland (another premiere hosting centre) or Norway

so i do not think that eastern europe has any lag-related issues with poe. desync however..

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deteego a écrit :

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symban a écrit :

First of all 50ms is NOT 0.5 second. It is 0.05 second.

Yup, believe it or not, in the real world we have to deal with physics, and whether you are on fibre connection or copper connection, electrons/protons will travel at (almost) the speed of light.

So in other words, if you have landline connection (TODAY), that is ADSL2/Cable/Fiber/vDSL, in the same country that the server is on, you are going to have a ping of 5-70MS, which is 0.005s to 0.07s delay on inputs. Its only when you start going into 100MS (0.01 seconds) that you start noticing any sought of delay

played q3/osp/cpma competetively for several years. if the event was not LAN-party type we've played with various latencies and game was fair and even up to 120-130ms. we were so used to this latency that several LAN tournaments were hosted 'on ping' that is with proxy-induced artificial 50 to 100ms latency. playing with 5ms latency felt weird and for people used to 60-90 was very hard. after all we practiced in 'field' conditions and did all prediction instinctively. very limited prediction in q3 netcode.. veeeeeeeery limited :)

that day my home connection was 128kbps and it was perfectly enough :)

to all the 'this is hardcore game' - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ZtBCpo0eU

that speed run at the end was clumsy..

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deteego a écrit :

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symban a écrit :

First of all 50ms is NOT 0.5 second. It is 0.05 second.

Yup, believe it or not, in the real world we have to deal with physics, and whether you are on fibre connection or copper connection, electrons/protons will travel at (almost) the speed of light.

So in other words, if you have landline connection (TODAY), that is ADSL2/Cable/Fiber/vDSL, in the same country that the server is on, you are going to have a ping of 5-70MS, which is 0.005s to 0.07s delay on inputs. Its only when you start going into 100MS (0.01 seconds) that you start noticing any sought of delay

And remember, this is only if you have memorized the patterns of the game, are an expert of the game, and are well above average in terms of reaction times (average human reaction time is around 200 ms).