Is PoE suffering from poor game design choices?

The fact you bring up LoL kind of proves you haven't read a damn thing about desync. As others have already explained LoL has a totally different architecture. LoL doesn't have desync, but it does have lag. If you try to play LoL with > 200 ms with the server you will usually have debilitating lag, which is why this game has desync, which is a different kind of lag. LoL doesn't let you move your character when you have over 200 ms, PoE does.

If PoE had LoL's architecture everyone would whine about how lag killed their HC char instead of desync.

Also, LoL has about 0.5 s of input lag, PoE has close to none, this is why it was designed the way it was.

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Qarl a écrit :

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ToxicRatt a écrit :

Bloody Brilliant. To bad no one from GGG will read it.

Yes, it does get read. People believing it doesn't get read could explain some of the tone.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Qarl. And I apologize for sidetracking a bit, but could you clarify your statement regarding the tone? Are you referring to the tone of my post specifically? There's no intent to be malicious. I just thought it a slightly humorous and apt analogy to illustrate my point.

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Qarl a écrit :

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ToxicRatt a écrit :

Bloody Brilliant. To bad no one from GGG will read it.

Yes, it does get read. People believing it doesn't get read could explain some of the tone.

I'd say the reason people assume the feedback forum isn't being read is because the developers post so infrequently as compared to the reddit, and there is almost always no communication on the direction of design balance. I understand the impediments of time and the like, but that's probably what happens with a lack of community managers.

I will say that your last Diamond newsletter was very well written, and we'd all like to see more on what goes into the process of balancing items and their prevalence.

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UnderOmerta a écrit :

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sidtherat a écrit :

- re-balancing sporkers during OB, not waiting for release. that cancer set in and created 'expecting broken' mindset that still lingers
- reverse of catastrophic 'melee buff' path in OB, not waiting for release

More than this, the trend for GGG seems to be overcompensatory when it comes to buffs/nerfs. Phys damage was inferior to ele damage. Okay, buff phys and nerf ele so bad that it's now more effective to do phys to ele conversion than it is to do ele damage. Then nerf weapon elemental damage gem until it's basically far inferior to physical damage in every way. THEN nerf shock damage so we further de-incentivize one of the key aspects that made elemental damage appealing (elemental damage deals status effects, while physical damage has superior leech; makes sense).

Lowlife sporkers are OP. Okay, nerf spork to the point where it's basically unusable, then nerf lowlife RF to where it literally IS unusable. THEN nerf totem just for good measure.

Melee is inferior to ranged. Okay, buff melee to the point where now melee damage so far outdistances ranged and caster damage that it's not even really comparable.

Life is not as strong as ES. Ok, nerf ES and buff life to the point where almost no one uses ES, save to convert it to mana for EB/MoM builds...

It's like GGG is completely incapable of finding a middle ground. Everything has to be either overly strong or overly weak. There's really no need to nerf multiple things about a build at the same time.

Seems I have to somewhat agree with how you put the situation in layman terms here.

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CharanJaydemyr a écrit :

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GeorgAnatoly a écrit :

When I read about the new chisel recipe last night I had to ask myself, 'Are the developers somewhat... lacking in intellect or foresight or are they somewhat apathetic in how various decisions will affect the game?' It took me and, what I assume, many others literally seconds to realize that recipe was simply an idea the should have been scrapped and something else more pragmatic to achieve the same goal thought of in its place. But you have to assume they did the development of that recipe with thought and intent which just circles me back to the question, are the people responsible for that recipe's implementation, forgive me but, stupid?

My guess would be it was considered a 'cool' idea -- and thematically it's pretty clever. But in practice, I think it's going to backfire.

It seems to me like it is a constant. Devs have these cool and artsy ideas but completely ignore any pratical consideration while developing them, ending releasing completely unpractical or unbalanced items / skills / mechanics. I'm still clueless to how they can't figure these simple things while average players on the forum can, is it possible none of them have high level characters on their own game?

Since mostly what I see on the forum is [removed by admin] and be nice or else compared to the honest answers I see on reddit...well you can see where I am coming from.

Don't like the assumptions then use the official forum more and reddit less.

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sidtherat a écrit :

- 'we created gameplay with alt-f4 in mind'
- 'economy is the most important part of this game'

Yep, these two are preety bad.

Regarding desync: the worst design choice imo is not their client-server communication arhitecture, but that despite the known limitations of this arhitecture, they keep throwing in level design with difficult navigation and fast enemies - stuff that their net code & AI cant handle.

Couple that with fast paced combat, where you can be dead in two seconds, and you have what? Alt-F4 ballance?

Ok, but then give us instant TP as part of gameplay mechanic, not "gameplay is ballanced around killing the client process to avoid death" - that sounds totally amateurish, geez... :)

It is very hard for me to say, because a lot of design choices in PoE that I consider poor, are closely related to my playstyle - solo, as self-found as possible. The game is not developed to be played like that, so I guess it works much better when played as imagined.

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GeorgAnatoly a écrit :

how did these obviously poor design choices make it into the game?

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GeorgAnatoly a écrit :

The trust in the client operating their game is so little they are willing to let horrific desync undermine the entirety of their project yet they are incredibly soft on rmt, bots, and other arguably illicit and unfair practices.

They have insanely obvious and unfortunate balance issues in terms of the various possible build's power/skill gems and furthermore whole segments of combat (magic in general, low level zombies being worthless etc) are inferior or obviously gated/has a lower glass ceiling.

Trade and PoE's economy/crafting is so obviously poorly designed to anyone new and experienced and is so unbalanced compared to normal play that an average player with a reasonable amount of time to invest can't possibly hope to compete against an avid trader, botter, rmter, or multiboxer.

The difficulty is really ridiculous. I'm not saying give me carebear or make the game easier, read this sentence again if you need to. The difficulty spikes are extreme and unforeseeable with the punishments feeling excessive. Unless you already know the when, where, whys, and hows of those spikes in difficulty your character will be simply unable to cope with them.

My opinion is, that all the things you listed, ended in game not because GGG tried to achieve something, but because they tried to avoid something else. In other words they didn't make choices, fear forced their hand.

Client mistrust issue is quite obvious in that regard. Does it at least do its job in giving bots hard time? I wouldn't know and I really don't care. Playing solo, trading just a little bit - bots don't affect me. Desync on the other hand...

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Balancing all the different builds in this game is pretty much impossible, especially on lower levels. Variety of functional endgame builds is satisfactory, I think and I guess it will improve as time passes.

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Trading and crafting are what breaks this game for me. I don't like trading and it is by far the most efficient way of "playing". You can not even experience crafting if you are not a trader.
It is so bad that D3 Auction House seems at least honest in comparison: you farm for currency and not for items. That is the game, and it is stingy. Stingy as no other Diablo clone has been before.
(Loot hunt is on par with D3: fill the inventory and vendor it. Keep your hopes low)

But, Merchant says that if you could get best items easily, you would get bored quickly and move on. Merchant says that crafting is fine. And Merchant is an honourable man...

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Difficulty. They are completely off on this one. I said before that I get the impression GGG's biggest concern is that PoE might be seen as an easy game. Merchant's posts deepen that concern further. Merchant proclaims that if game is easy people will get bored quickly and quit. And Merchant is an honourable man.

Of course we all know, that millions of people played Diablo and clones for years. With uber gear that trivialized the content. Fun was had.
Godly and totally overpowered characters melted the mobs and nothing was wrong with that.

GGG shouldn't be afraid of empowering the players. It is not the satisfaction that drives players from loot grinding games. It is desperation caused by lack of reward, inability to reach the point of "Ok, this is easy now, let me sacrifice armour, res, health, EVERYTHING for Magic Find". But then again, what is the use of MF, when you are grinding for currency?

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RandallMourn a écrit :

Spoiler

The only design decision I truly have a problem with is the lack of a toggle to eliminate weather/particle effects. I find it analgous to walking into a sandwich shop and having the following conversation:

Me: Hey, let me get your signature sandwich but hold the special sauce please.

GGG Sandwich Maker: Sorry, but you have to have the special sauce to enjoy the full experience.

Me: But the sandwich is good enough without the special sauce. I don't need it.

GSM: Yes, you do.

Me: But I don't like the taste of the sauce. It actually detracts from the experience for me.

GSM: Um....

Me: On top of that, I'm allergic to it. It could lead to something detrimental.

GSM: Well, maybe you could pay a doctor to give you an allergy shot before you eat the special sauce.

Me: You realize that the money I give the doctor is less money I can spend on your sandwiches, right?

GSM: Yes, but the experience. You need the experience.


See what I'm getting at? I may not like desynch or other isuues. But they aren't game breaking (for me) and the company has what they believe are valid reasons behind these things. Fair enough. But having my FPS drop to 2 in a boss fight when a simple toggle eliminates it for what, in effect, appears nothing more than a vanity driven decision is misguided at best.

@"Too bad they won't read. . ." I can say with near absolute certainty, that GGG take a great deal of interest in the feedback forums. Responding, that is another matter entirely. It is simply a more economic use of their time to respond to discussions on Reddit, and not the official forums. The official forums suffer from an archaic design that promotes toxic behavior.

Every time somebody posts the exact same thread somebody else did yesterday (especially in re: desync), something GGG have already responded to many times, and somebody responds even just to say "repeat thread," it gets bumped to the top of the list. Relevant, healthy discussions are moved down the list, according to most recent activity, and thereby receive less publicity. Circle jerk ad infinitum; same thread, already discussed, still on the top of the page.

Furthermore, even within healthy discussions, the potential for discussion is inhibited by the linear layout of the thread--something completely inorganic to multiple people attempting to engage in a dynamic conversation. Any engaging response from GGG can, and likely will, derail several other potential lines of discussion, as the linear fashion sees to it that only one topic is maintained at a time.

Reddit, on the other hand, self moderates. Repeat topics are downvoted and swept under the rug. Relevant and healthy discussions maintain the public eye. Within those discussions, every reply has potential to branch into its own sub-discussion, allowing every GGG and user response to be explored and discussed for all their merits, all while without disrupting other sub-discussions.

So, to sum things up:
PoE Official Forums: Archaic design, same topics, already answered, get in the way of other discussions; linear layout, inhibiting to tangential discussions.
PoE Subreddit: Same topics, don't get in the way of other discussions, relevant discussions immediately noticable; dynamic layout intuitive to tangential discussions.

So, basically, GGG needs to abandon these forums as conceived, and adopt a Reddit-like architecture, if you want to see them engage in healthy discussions 'round these parts. That's $$$. Probably way too much $$$.

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morbo a écrit :

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sidtherat a écrit :

- 'we created gameplay with alt-f4 in mind'
- 'economy is the most important part of this game'

Yep, these two are preety bad.

Regarding desync: the worst design choice imo is not their client-server communication arhitecture, but that despite the known limitations of this arhitecture, they keep throwing in level design with difficult navigation and fast enemies - stuff that their net code & AI cant handle.

Couple that with fast paced combat, where you can be dead in two seconds, and you have what? Alt-F4 ballance?

Ok, but then give us instant TP as part of gameplay mechanic, not "gameplay is ballanced around killing the client process to avoid death" - that sounds totally amateurish, geez... :)

Yup, it's the continuing to add as if desync wasn't an issue rather than remove/fix/change the already aggravating stuff that pisses me.

I had one almighty facepalm when they upped the %move-cast-attack mod on maps.

Have you seen how many monsters desync with that mod alone now?
Not to mention it can stack with implicit monster quick mods.