Evasion---Hard Counters with nothing to recounter

Yeah, I don't see how you come to the conclusion there aren't enough life nodes available for EV chars. The only real hard counter are physical spells, unfortunately Vaal rocks are spells afaik. :\
I like EV for it's strength when dealing with ele reflect, an additional protection to your resists that armour can't offer.

The really dangerous things are a bit...more,when you play pure evasion.
-hard hitters in groups;rhoas and shield chargers can evaporate eva build in a single charge;I was recently hit for 3.3k by a single rhoa champ,charged offscreen;when playing pure eva every hit hurts,even white mobs in hl maps hit you hard;not to mention the dmg is unpredictable and player can't adjust to it,in a difference with armor based chars,you just lose the sense when exactly to run away
-heavy spell dmg and AOE;they are the same threat for AR based chars,but latter usually got a lot of life reg,first,and counter hybrid (lightning strike for ex.)hits much much better
-level progression;hl areas and maps consist of high accuracy mobs,the more you progress the worse it gets;hl pure eva char needs frequent gear upgrades,or he's that fucked
-char progression;char needs punctually every HP nod possible,dmg nodes stay aside;the lower the clear speed is,the higher is the chance to be killed;AR characters use to get much more str which reflects in naturally higher dmg + HP
-dexterity inefficiency;evasion gain from dex parameter sucks badly
Pure eva is not bad for early/mid game.Could play hl only if over geared,which is hard and expensive.

"

Bishop120 a écrit :

There is very few life nodes available to an evasion player and most are lucky to see 2k to 2200 life and very little life regen.

haha bullshit!, ranger can get in the own area the most life compared to any other life area.

Ranger: 180% increased maximum Life || 1% Life Regen

Duelist: 56% increased maximum Life || 3.3% Life Regen

Marauder: 116% increased maximum Life || 1.9% Life Regen

Templar: 74% increased maximum Life || 1% Life Regen

Witch: 82% increased maximum Life

Shadow: 110% increased maximum Life

"

Bishop120 a écrit :

Finally we come to Evasion. Evasion gives the player a chance to completely avoid many melee and ranged attacks. There is very few life nodes available to an evasion player and most are lucky to see 2k to 2200 life and very little life regen. A player with at least 50% evasion and Ondars Guile should never have to worry about any ranged attacks. All players innately have a 5% chance to evade but no player can reach 100% evasion and its is capped at 95%. In addition the game has a built in "streak preventer" which ensures all attacks are averaged out. A player with 50% evasion would easily be able to expect to get hit 1 out of ever 2 attacks. The hard counter to Evasion is spell damage, AoE DoT effects, monsters with "Hits Accurately", and Resolute Technique (attacks cannot be evaded). Due to low life Evasion players can often be 1-2 shot by monsters and are easily affected by status ailments. The soft counters that evasion players are given are passives to reduced the chance of status ailments, Dodge, and Spell Dodge. Dodge gives 20-30% chance to dodge an attack that was not evaded and spell dodge gives a flat 20% chance to dodge a spell. Because of the reductive nature of combining Dodge/Evasion/Block (a player with 50% chance to Evade will only be able to dodge 10% of the remainning attacks with 20% chance to dodge). In an attempt to mitigate critical hits Evasion users have a chance equal to their evasion chance to turn a critical hit into a non critical, but regardless of how high the players evasion is there will always be a chance to receive a critical hit.

I'm tired of seeing these poorly researched arguments.

1) Split down the middle there is MORE % life to the right of the tree than the left.
2) Evasion does not" easily expect" enemies to hiut once in two attacks at 50%, they will (assuming flat accuracy across enemies) ALWAYS get hit once per two attack. No variability.
3) There is no "reductive nature of block and dodge" If you have 20% dodge you evade 20% of attacks that pass your entropy threshold. No stun chance. That means 60% of attacks miss you if you have 50% evade. That isn't "10% of remaining attacks".
4) Evasion users also have the ridiculously efficient Enfeeble scaling that Armour users can't hope to match.

"

The summary for Evasion users is that there is no soft counter to the hard counters put against them. Dodge can get up to only 30% chance and Spell Dodge is a lowly 20% chances which means the majority of the time "Hits Accurately", Resolute Technique, and Spells WILL hit. Evasion users face swift death near spell attacks and AoE DoTs due to low life and minimal life regen passives. The only ability Evasion users truly have in their favor is Ondars Guile which allows an evasion user to survive a pack of ranged mobs long enough to kill them. Without Ondars Guile most evasion users near insta die due to the "streakness" preventer guaranteeing that they will be hit when a pack lets loose with volleys of arrows or in the case of Tentacled Miscreations a single volley from a single mob.

Enemies have no Resolute Technique. Spells "always hit" Armour characters as well (who have only 10-20% more health than a half decent evade build) and nothing is stopping an EV character from using resistances. Dodge is one of the most eHP efficient investments in the game (with 200% life form nodes which is doable it's worth about 100% in life nodes across 5 points).

Assuming "Hits accurately" is +100% accuracy it will reduce evasion chance by 1/3 if you're at 50% evade (to 33%). At 70% evade (because you're not an idiot and you use enfeeble) it reduces your evade to 54%. It's not crippling, especially after the dex monster change.

"

Flicker Strike is highly effective against evasion characters due to the high accuracy rating of their users and even with the current nerf there is still a significant chance to be chain hit/killed by Flicker mobs.

Monster accuracy was normalized a couple patches ago. Flickwer mobs no longer have an accuracy bonus, if they're chain-striking you you have crap evade/block. Or you're low level.

"

Sea Witch packs which can chain cast Cold Snap has been known to keep evasion users perma frozen even with maxed cold resists.

Maybe you should actually invest in some life nodes. Right side life nodes have highly efficient choices.

"

Now a possible solution (soft counter) to the hard counters should be passive in nature. First.. since Dodge is added in in a reductive chance manner it should be significantly buffed. (reommend top end around 50%). Even a user with 75% evasion chance (near impossible in end game) would still have an 11% chance to be hit. Thats still gives a significant chance to be 1-2 shot in end game. As a down side I would make it so that for every 1% dodge chance the player looses 2% armor and ES. At 50% they would have 0 armor and 0 ES.

Spell dodging would be so much cooler if it instead was simply "allows you to dodge and evade spells"

"

Wooser69 a écrit :

Spell dodging would be so much cooler if it instead was simply "allows you to dodge and evade spells"

Would be insane (especially with Enfeeble), caster mobs most likely have little dexterity and thus almost no accuracy. Also it would be very weird if they had to use accuracy for spells, mechanics-wise.

"

LMHTB a écrit :

"

Bishop120 a écrit :

There is very few life nodes available to an evasion player and most are lucky to see 2k to 2200 life and very little life regen.

haha bullshit!, ranger can get in the own area the most life compared to any other life area.

Ranger: 180% increased maximum Life || 1% Life Regen

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgIBAF4EfgX5CC4VIBXwGY4a2yP2LOkyATWGOlg6sz7PSn1RR1b6Wkhh62egbBZ6U311g9uHGYd2jX2bJpuNnaqjiqp_qriyGbnNvebOcc96037dDe2D7g7veu_w-WP8S_zF_ro=

Duelist: 56% increased maximum Life || 3.3% Life Regen

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgQBBS0Y2yFgJ9U1hjqzQKBHflPfWNtbr2BLZU107XTxeu-E2YTvmSubg52qq8W5zb2BxFjdDQ==

Marauder: 116% increased maximum Life || 1.9% Life Regen

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgEBC2EUIBtFOuFN41BHUFBVtVhjXz94DXloerh7jIjxjM-Ov57NplenMKlurFmuk7Xytz7BBMauxtjnY_JF9kj-Cv6P

Templar: 74% increased maximum Life || 1% Life Regen

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgUBAnEEsxRNGYUaOBpsJKopTzbpOth8u4TEiuSQVZvsogCnhK9sxYrjauQi7DjwHw==

Witch: 82% increased maximum Life

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgMBB2MI9A2NES0WbxzcIvQxiFXGVytirGwLeQN8g33Sjr6PRpLBoW2nCLiTvJ_AVM36z2XQ0NQZ1p3fsOOf5oE=

Shadow: 110% increased maximum Life

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgYBDkgPqxGWIcAkPCaVJy8nqTY9NntJO0lRUzVVS1ptYeJtbG17cn5yu3_GiGuP-qdcqnyzDrSjtUjLQdvn44TndOwY8Nn_kw==

What you fail to take into account is that every STR node is both life and Damage for a melee character. Any melee evasion character must choose between passives for damage and passives for life and unfortunately if your a claw build that leaves you going in the opposite direction of the life nodes which really doesnt make any sense because thats the area for daggers but whatever I guess.

Every 10+ str node that Armor/Phys users pass by grants +5 Base life and +2% damage. They can get more survivability just by taking their own base stat than evasion characters could get.

So that Marauder you posted... gets 85 life points just from his Str that is then more than doubled to the final 183 life. The shadow you posted would be lucky to gets less than 100. In addition the shadow has a wopping +18% to his damage. The Marauder +34%. More life/more damage. Thank you please try again.

The Ranger? Her and the Duelists were the most recently revamped classess in the game so it is logical that they would have the best passives. Guess what... a wopping 64 str means shes only got 32 base life and a total of ****drum roll***** 89.6 life for her passives and life node. So again... we have less life... and oh guess what.. no armor for physical mitigation and still basic life regen so how many hits would it take a mob to kill us?? Even if we were to get to the magical 95% evasion cap we could still be one shot by random mobs.. let alone mobs with "Hits Accurately" or "Allies ALWAYS CRIT". Please daddy can I have some more???

Marauders... 2 nodes that reduce damage done by ALL CRITS. Evasion?? Maybe you can evade a crit.. unless they ALWAYS Crit. Armor... Always reduce physical damage. Evasion.. You have a good chance to evade if your gear is top notch and you have lots of evasion passives and lots of Dexterity.. unless they "Hit Accurately" or "Hits cannot be Evaded" or "Multiple Projectiles". Dodge? Less than 1/3 chance if you have 0 evasion/block chance. If you can block or evade Dodge maybe reduces your chance to be hit by what.. 5-10%? Yeah like that makes a big difference when you can be 1-2 shot.

Another thing. Everyone starts with a basic 5% evasion chance. By just haveing Grace on most players can easily get upto around 20% evasion against even level 70 mobs. So that health and armor that phys users have goes even farther. Evasion characters... not so much. If we use determination you know what we get?? Nothing. We have no armor for Determination to buff. Armor users can even use Grace to BUFF their armor by grabbing Iron Reflexes for OVER 2K armor. They can get more armor from our key aura than we can get from 99% of our chest pieces. The reason Iron Reflexes was nerfed had nothing to do with true evasion users getting it. It had to do with natural armor users getting it for the nearly 3K buff they used to get from combining Grace+Determination+High Dexterity.


In addition.. the way armor and evasion scale is totally opposite. A little evasion can go a long way in the endgame as shown with Grace example above. Evasion ramps up quick then slows down. Armor... exactly the opposite. A little armor does almost nothing to reduce incoming damage. It requires high amounts of armor to mitigate high amounts of damage. This is why its useless for evasion players to use even the lowest amount of armor but while armor players can easily benefit from some evasion.

Remeber that thing about every player haveing at least 5% chance to evade? Even with 0 evasion you still mitigate out 5% damage. Evasion... we have no physical/elemental mitigation without special passives and all of ours still function on the idea that we avoid getting hit... not on the idea that we still will likely get hit and need to take less damage.


I can Blind/Enfeeble/Max Dodge/Max Block/Max Evasion and guess what... 1 out of 20 attacks can still hit me. And because there is a streakness preventer guess what its guaranteed.

Evasion just got a huge buff, I would say it's pretty good now. My 68 bow shadow has 60% evade chance, 46% dodge chance, 20% spell dodge, 95% projectile evade and 75% attack avoidance from blind on my lightning arrow totem...

"

Bishop120 a écrit :

What you fail to take into account is that every STR node is both life and Damage for a melee character. Any melee evasion character must choose between passives for damage and passives for life and unfortunately if your a claw build that leaves you going in the opposite direction of the life nodes which really doesnt make any sense because thats the area for daggers but whatever I guess.

Every 10+ str node that Armor/Phys users pass by grants +5 Base life and +2% damage. They can get more survivability just by taking their own base stat than evasion characters could get.

So that Marauder you posted... gets 85 life points just from his Str that is then more than doubled to the final 183 life. The shadow you posted would be lucky to gets less than 100. In addition the shadow has a wopping +18% to his damage. The Marauder +34%. More life/more damage. Thank you please try again.

The Ranger? Her and the Duelists were the most recently revamped classess in the game so it is logical that they would have the best passives. Guess what... a wopping 64 str means shes only got 32 base life and a total of ****drum roll***** 89.6 life for her passives and life node. So again... we have less life... and oh guess what.. no armor for physical mitigation and still basic life regen so how many hits would it take a mob to kill us?? Even if we were to get to the magical 95% evasion cap we could still be one shot by random mobs.. let alone mobs with "Hits Accurately" or "Allies ALWAYS CRIT". Please daddy can I have some more???

The level of stupid in this statement is mind boggling. Life from strength is a drop in the bucket compared to life on gear and life from level, attempting to discredit the literally 50% more life available to a Ranger in tehir start area because "you get less strength so you must have less health" shows that yo uclearly do not know what you're talking about.

The Ranger build spent 49 Points (40 Levels or so) to get 180% increased life, with 328 maximum life before life multiplier and 918 life after.

the marauder build spent 26 points (27 levels or so) 116% increased life, with 285 maximum life before multiplier and 615 life after.

The marauder spent 68% of what the Ranger spent, achieving 64% of the benefit. They achieved it earlier, however it will be more expensive for the marauder to branch out to get the same life multiplier and life form level/gear is a far far greater chunk of your life total than life from strength.

Oh and mobs deal 130% damage on a crit and white mobs DO NOT deal much damage. A level 79 white mob deal ~800 damage. That's not a scary amount of damage when you get hit once every 10 seconds.

"

Marauders... 2 nodes that reduce damage done by ALL CRITS. Evasion?? Maybe you can evade a crit.. unless they ALWAYS Crit. Armor... Always reduce physical damage. Evasion.. You have a good chance to evade if your gear is top notch and you have lots of evasion passives and lots of Dexterity.. unless they "Hit Accurately" or "Hits cannot be Evaded" or "Multiple Projectiles". Dodge? Less than 1/3 chance if you have 0 evasion/block chance. If you can block or evade Dodge maybe reduces your chance to be hit by what.. 5-10%? Yeah like that makes a big difference when you can be 1-2 shot.

Fun fact "Always Crit" doesnt stop the mob from making a crit confirmation, which the evade character will be negating 95% of the time at 95% evade. And dodge will ALWAYS reduce your chance to be hit by 30%, just because it's 30% of attacks you don;t evade doesn't mean you're not getting hit 30% less.

amd as I already covered, unless "Hits Accurately" is in excess of 100% and you don;t use Blind/Enfeeble it's not a danger to Evade characters who actually keep up gear.

"

Another thing. Everyone starts with a basic 5% evasion chance. By just haveing Grace on most players can easily get upto around 20% evasion against even level 70 mobs. So that health and armor that phys users have goes even farther. Evasion characters... not so much. If we use determination you know what we get?? Nothing. We have no armor for Determination to buff. Armor users can even use Grace to BUFF their armor by grabbing Iron Reflexes for OVER 2K armor. They can get more armor from our key aura than we can get from 99% of our chest pieces. The reason Iron Reflexes was nerfed had nothing to do with true evasion users getting it. It had to do with natural armor users getting it for the nearly 3K buff they used to get from combining Grace+Determination+High Dexterity.

Using IR to convert Grace on an AR character is a terrible waste of resources. You're giving up 15% (listed, it's worth more relative to base) evasion for a trivial amount of damage reduction, and 166 OHKO soak. Bad deal.

"

In addition.. the way armor and evasion scale is totally opposite. A little evasion can go a long way in the endgame as shown with Grace example above. Evasion ramps up quick then slows down. Armor... exactly the opposite. A little armor does almost nothing to reduce incoming damage. It requires high amounts of armor to mitigate high amounts of damage. This is why its useless for evasion players to use even the lowest amount of armor but while armor players can easily benefit from some evasion.

Evasion has a higher potential safety value, an EV effectively character cannot die unless one shot. An AR character can be mobbed. And EV character can use Enfeeble to become nearly unhittable while benefitting form DR, and AR character gets mildly better DR but remains mobbable.

"

Remeber that thing about every player haveing at least 5% chance to evade? Even with 0 evasion you still mitigate out 5% damage. Evasion... we have no physical/elemental mitigation without special passives and all of ours still function on the idea that we avoid getting hit... not on the idea that we still will likely get hit and need to take less damage.

Fun fact AR has no elemental mitigation without focusing on gear or passives.

"

I can Blind/Enfeeble/Max Dodge/Max Block/Max Evasion and guess what... 1 out of 20 attacks can still hit me. And because there is a streakness preventer guess what its guaranteed.

So? The best an Armour character can mitigate is 90% of incoming damage. An EV character can spike to 95%. 20 Mobs attacking an AR character do MORE damage than those 20 mobs attacking an EV character. Twice as much.

Hell in a duel the EV character is going to have 10+ seconds before being hit by a boss. The AR character is going to be taking those big chunky hits every second. Guess who's safer.

Saying "well you'll get hit" is basically like telling an AR character "well you're gonna get hit by spells". Duh. The difference is in how that hit is going to effect you. The AR character is going to take lots of little hits for more overall damage relative to the EV character taking only single big hits (generally seconds apart if they know what they're doing). In the end the EV character just needs to be able to take a ~6k phys damage spike (upper end phys damage on mobs, vaal slam) and need only use some mobility rather than tank and spank. The AR character in contrast needs to be able to soak that hit while simultaneously being able to regenerate and prepare for more hits in a short span of time. The EV character can laugh and say "try again in 30 seconds".

Completely. Different. Defensive. Designs.

And EV character with enough health to soak large hits (and that's NOT HARD, EV has more efficient HP than the AR character areas) to not be one shot is pretty much as invulnerable as an AR character.

Oh and just because it's half effectiveness doesn't mean a Granite isn't worth it.

Very good theorycrafting Autocthon, congratulation.

But small question. Did you have possibility to check those theories on content >70 lvl? Because my practice shows, that even on low level maps, my eva characters are wrecked comparing to my ar characters.

At the moment I'm leveling 3rd test eva character, this time I will be able to get Acrobatics (previously I rolled EB/CI characters so obviously I didn't want to reduce my ES) but I have little to no hope that it will work for me. That's why I will be passing only 3 point away from IR :)