Increased Item Quantity and Rarity seem to work backwards

Hellkaiser, I can talk math with you all day long, thereby making most people stop reading this thread.

instead, I'll just ask you a very straightforward question:
is 1% increased magic find better than 0%?

the answer - of course - is yes, but your post correctly showed you need more than 1% to visually notice a difference. a lot more.

still, the basic starting condition which cannot and should not be violated - invariant if you will - is for magic find to never produce worse results than no magic find.

well it does in my case.
and not only in mine.

obviously I can't look at GGG's implementation of IIR and IIQ and their effects on the output of the Number-Generating functions, and honestly I don't care - but something there clearly is faulty. extremely faulty.

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Undon3 a écrit :

You need hundreds of IIQ/IIR (but mostly IIQ) to notice changes. I think the set of gear with which I farmed 66s had 180/200 or something and there were a lot of very dry runs still (on a Witch, but that hardly matters). The only valuable gear I've found (2 white 5Ls and a Blue 5L Thicket Bow, plus 1 or 2 mid-tier uniques) were found in 70+ maps with normal gear (0/100 IIQ/IIR I believe). RNG is RNG. This is the actual problem.

Go kill normal Merveil with 180/200 and you'll be swimming in rares and uniques, always.

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koppees a écrit :

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Undon3 a écrit :

You need hundreds of IIQ/IIR (but mostly IIQ) to notice changes. I think the set of gear with which I farmed 66s had 180/200 or something and there were a lot of very dry runs still (on a Witch, but that hardly matters). The only valuable gear I've found (2 white 5Ls and a Blue 5L Thicket Bow, plus 1 or 2 mid-tier uniques) were found in 70+ maps with normal gear (0/100 IIQ/IIR I believe). RNG is RNG. This is the actual problem.

Go kill normal Merveil with 180/200 and you'll be swimming in rares and uniques, always.

Well, I used to run her, but not a lot, because the drops were crap. Currency wise, I had a MUCH, MUCH better time with Vaal Normal pre-Chaos nerf (no, I didn't multibox, just my Witch, solo).

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johnKeys a écrit :

Hellkaiser, I can talk math with you all day long, thereby making most people stop reading this thread.

instead, I'll just ask you a very straightforward question:
is 1% increased magic find better than 0%?

the answer - of course - is yes, but your post correctly showed you need more than 1% to visually notice a difference. a lot more.

still, the basic starting condition which cannot and should not be violated - invariant if you will - is for magic find to never produce worse results than no magic find.

well it does in my case.
and not only in mine.

obviously I can't look at GGG's implementation of IIR and IIQ and their effects on the output of the Number-Generating functions, and honestly I don't care - but something there clearly is faulty. extremely faulty.

Me included, so please don't XD math is a necessity in this game, but going too far into it becomes a chore and besides, a perfectly mathematically balanced game would be dull as dishwater due to it not having any variance to keep it fresh. I don't question the math's as such and more question the paradigm they've chosen.

I wouldn't say it's broken, it just is possibly and potentially the WORST and stingiest possible application of magic find systems, the fact that it is only fully utilized by the "safest" builds "totem-mancers" "minion masters" and EK farmers to a lesser degree.

There's a difference between "added % Increased item rarity" and "*% increased item rarity"

But we can't deal with magic find, until we deal with the simple fact that this game does NOT have adequate orb and item sinks! people ARE amassing wealth, and without anywhere to put that accumulated wealth it just stockpiles.

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Martinezz123 a écrit :

If the 55% IIR (mine actual amount) "is nothing", while means you have to get it on at least three items, than it means the game is poorly balanced.
Players should see results even witch like 11% IIR - which is a common ring % in act 3.
If not. Than there should be done something about that.
Stacking high amounts of it just to see the difference is not how it should work.

Let me just say that I think it's working properly because once you pass the 300%/ 50% mark u get tangible results just this morning i got 3 uniques in one hour alongside countless unsellable inferior rares - aka don't bother with IIR, get orbs instead.

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Hellkaiser a écrit :

people are probably NOT understanding how MF in general works and why it's rubbish.

100% increase of a 1% drop item, is 2%

400% increase of a 1% drop item is 4%

all that increased RARITY will do is increase the chance that it will drop by a percentile of an unknown number and probably only if the BASE item rolls to drop (unless I'm mistaken, which I might be) so without increased RARITY in order to possibly cause more drops, the increased favorable RNG is missing a piece of the puzzle really.

Also, isn't there a minimum itemlevel which determines if a base item can roll a unique or not?

Hellkaiser - exactly.
That's why I've made a topic about "what's the base item rarity".
Couldn't get any answer.
The topic is here:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/341387/page/1#p2996887
Base item Quantity is know however.
As far as I remember is about 16% from a normal mob.


But. Actually it does not matter what the base item rarity is.
It may be even 1% without the stats.
But the system of increasing it should be made the way that you actually feel the increase.
If the increase from 1% to 2% is unnoticeable, the actual % of increasing it, you have, should work some other way. For example it should be multiplied by some amount for the players to feel the difference.
We don't need to know the intrinsic mechanics.
What we should know, is that it actually works.

RNG is RNG. With barely any IIR/IIQ I dropped today L66 and L67 unique map and

and couple worthless junk uniques that you drop pretty regularly.

I never dropped unique maps before and sometimes several days worth farming without any uniques. Rares you see more than you can carry pretty much every map without IIQ/IIR so I find it hard to justify running MF gear without any way of knowing does it work or not really.

I'd be happy with game without such luck items tbh as it makes no sense that you drop "better" items thanks to some bloody amulet on your neck. "Normally this mob has blue chest but because you equipped MF gear it magically is RARE when it drops to ground" lol. Yeah it is a game but it just so unrealistic its not even funny imo :P

IIR is not just for finding uniques guys. It's for rares and magic as well. So even if unique chance is .01, you WILL notice a significant increase in rare items as your IIR goes up. It's a huge difference with and without

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Martinezz123 a écrit :

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Hellkaiser a écrit :

people are probably NOT understanding how MF in general works and why it's rubbish.

100% increase of a 1% drop item, is 2%

400% increase of a 1% drop item is 4%

all that increased RARITY will do is increase the chance that it will drop by a percentile of an unknown number and probably only if the BASE item rolls to drop (unless I'm mistaken, which I might be) so without increased QUANTITY in order to possibly cause more drops, the increased favorable RNG is missing a piece of the puzzle really.

Also, isn't there a minimum itemlevel which determines if a base item can roll a unique or not?

Hellkaiser - exactly.
That's why I've made a topic about "what's the base item rarity".
Couldn't get any answer.
The topic is here:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/341387/page/1#p2996887
Base item Quantity is know however.
As far as I remember is about 16% from a normal mob.


But. Actually it does not matter what the base item rarity is.
It may be even 1% without the stats.
But the system of increasing it should be made the way that you actually feel the increase.
If the increase from 1% to 2% is unnoticeable, the actual % of increasing it, you have, should work some other way. For example it should be multiplied by some amount for the players to feel the difference.
We don't need to know the intrinsic mechanics.
What we should know, is that it actually works.

Actually, this is why I HATE the drop system in this game, it's INCREDIBLY sloppy, and simply based on itemlevel I have seen it being used in games made my rpg maker... and usually only because it saves time, not because it is a superior system. And NO "simple" is not synonymous with "The best possible choice" EVER. PERIOD. GTFO.

I also HATE a lack of transparency with drop rates etc in games, the whole "Ohohoho but it's a surprise when it drops" or "Ohohoh can you find that item and what boss it drops from" etc just makes me feel slightly patronized, I'm not a 3 year old that needs that kind of amusement... and all it really does it change what would be a set goal into a random length of time somewhere between immediately and when the sun burns out.

Yes this game is supposed to be along the lines of Diablo 2 because Diablo 3 is following in the WORST aspects of greed thanks to the much larger effect of back seat driver publishers pushing for "idiot proof" material, but going THIS far backwards is also NOT the way to do things. Here's a shocker for ya, Diablo 2 was NOT a perfect game, FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR... FAR from it. It had a myriad of flaws that were then altered by modders to create BETTER results and for the most part they SUCCEEDED. However, despite this game directly taking quite a lot of the good from them, they ALSO seem to have tweaked the game BACKWARDS towards the original by making it LESS rewarding...

Hint: IF most modders created popular sub games, which in many cases outshone the original game in many eyes by INCREASING the effort to reward ratio, it's generally NOT a great idea to then UNDO that change.

IF that's the case, why not keep HC mode as the punishing type with low rewards to keep all those guys super entertained with their hardcore game, and work on better ways for the unwashed masses to gear up in default?? (yes i'm aware default is an item dump for HC, I don't like it)

We can't even add x stat to any existing mods via orbs, that was like.... one of the BASIC changes that improved Diablo 2 in all it's mods... what happened? did you develop good idea blindness? XD (sorry GGG lads and lassies, but have to be harsh)

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ampdecay a écrit :

yeah when doing normal merveil runs if I dont have my 200% IIR and 100% IIQ I only get whites.

But with that gear on I get almost all rares and uniques, you just really need a lot to make a difference.

This is the conclusion I've come to. I've done 4 entire difficulty clears with between 100-160% or so IIQ, and noticed NO difference whatsoever compared to 4 difficulty clears with between 0% and 20% IIQ, when it comes to Orb drops. Granted the sample size is small, but it makes me suspect that there is some kind of awkward scaling or bias at play, that makes it so there is some sort of breaking point in the MF values that suddenly makes them become extremely strong. Something like 1-180% = not too much difference, but then 190+ it all of a sudden showers you with great stuff, even though you wouldn't think that 10% more could possibly make such a difference. Just a suspicion though. *tinfoil hat* The funny thing is, on my clears with no IIQ, I got several GCP, almost a dozen Chaos, and the only Exalted I've ever gotten, so it was almost as if having IIQ HURT me. It probably all comes down to nothing but luck, and RNG being RNG, but as a matter of perception, it's quite jarring; and that's bad for the morale of the player. It's also a bit of a newbie trap, because I invested that one exalt I found into IIR/IIQ gear, using the logic that over time it would pay for itself,...yeah well, I was a fool; I'd have been far better off hoarding that Exalt, or using it to directly buy other gear.