Israel does it's best to become the most hated nation in the world

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CantripN a écrit :

pro israel propaganda

You don't even believe in your own lies.
Yesterday PLO was the enemy, today Hamas is the enemy, tomorrow another group will be the enemy : an excuse to use the strength and kill more Palestinians.
Israel doesn't want "peace", because Israel doesn't need "peace", Israel is the boss of the region and it decides alone what's good or wrong, when to make peace and when to make war.
If you believe in miracles, Israel will stop using the strength to solve problems.

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Charan a écrit :

I get that this is the off-topic board, but this is a serious topic. Take that elsewhere.

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Charan a écrit :

Bullshit. If this can overcome its shitty title, so can and so did this thread.No, it went to shit when certain people came in and tried to be funny.

Bullshit.

Speaking for myself, it was never my intent to suggest that this isn't a serious topic, but this also isn't the place where actual work to help directly improve the situation is being done. Therefore, not being 100% serious in *all* of our posts is a luxury we still have and one that I in particular chose to appreciate.

And if you look closely enough you will see that no real "damage" to the discussion was made (that wasn't already there).

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Väkirauta a écrit :

Is there anybody who's in this discussion actually living close to either side?

CantripN.

He joined in at page 8.

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aliggato a écrit :

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CantripN a écrit :

pro israel propaganda

You don't even believe in your own lies.
Yesterday PLO was the enemy, today Hamas is the enemy, tomorrow another group will be the enemy : an excuse to use the strength and kill more Palestinians.
Israel doesn't want "peace", because Israel doesn't need "peace", Israel is the boss of the region and it decides alone what's good or wrong, when to make peace and when to make war.
If you believe in miracles, Israel will stop using the strength to solve problems.

Thank you for resorting to straw-man methods and worse. Makes my taking you seriously so much easier.

Who's YOU? And what makes you think anyone here (or anywhere outside a terror group or a psychopath) wants to kill people?

Once you stop oversimplifying things into us/them, Israel/Palestine, you see things are much more complex. Mistakes were made on all sides, no side has clean hands, but one party (Hamas) is still a terrorist, and one isn't. More to the point, there are NO SIDES, at least not 2 clear ones, there are no US/THEM.
While I do agree the only real, lasting, solution is a non-violent one, you can't possibly equate terror with a military operation; That's akin to comparing crime to police-work. I don't agree the ground operation is a solution to anything long-term, but if it's leveraged to work out something better with the like-minded people from the other side, it's worth it.

Any nation has the right to "decide alone what's good or wrong, when to make peace and when to make war." as you put it, btw. That's beside the point.

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CantripN a écrit :

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aliggato a écrit :

"

CantripN a écrit :

pro israel propaganda

You don't even believe in your own lies.
Yesterday PLO was the enemy, today Hamas is the enemy, tomorrow another group will be the enemy : an excuse to use the strength and kill more Palestinians.
Israel doesn't want "peace", because Israel doesn't need "peace", Israel is the boss of the region and it decides alone what's good or wrong, when to make peace and when to make war.
If you believe in miracles, Israel will stop using the strength to solve problems.

Thank you for resorting to straw-man methods and worse. Makes my taking you seriously so much easier.

Who's YOU? And what makes you think anyone here (or anywhere outside a terror group or a psychopath) wants to kill people?

Once you stop oversimplifying things into us/them, Israel/Palestine, you see things are much more complex. Mistakes were made on all sides, no side has clean hands, but one party (Hamas) is still a terrorist, and one isn't. More to the point, there are NO SIDES, at least not 2 clear ones, there are no US/THEM.
While I do agree the only real, lasting, solution is a non-violent one, you can't possibly equate terror with a military operation; That's akin to comparing crime to police-work. I don't agree the ground operation is a solution to anything long-term, but if it's leveraged to work out something better with the like-minded people from the other side, it's worth it.

Any nation has the right to "decide alone what's good or wrong, when to make peace and when to make war." as you put it, btw. That's beside the point.

You keep bringing that up,but what actually is terrorism?If in response of 3 deaths you counter with a bombing that kills 1000 people,when your operation is responsible for 100 times more civilian casualties,then terror is what you would describe with the clasic perception of terrorism?As i stated before,numbers talk,but you persist on claiming that deaths from one side are byproducs of terrorism,while the other side is legilimate military operation.I do not agree that there are no clear sides,i cannot agree it's israel vs hamas,when in the last month you have over 600 civilian casualties.You can claim all you want that civilian casualties are due to humman error and are minimal compared to what it would have been,also you can claim that civilian casualties are Hamas' fault,but the number won't chance,and the statistics have always been like that.

USA have consistently used terrorism as an excuse for military actions for control over various aeras.And that's the sole resone that it has been supportive of israel.


Vakirauta- Define close.I live in greece,have worked as a musician several times in cyprus, and have visited tel aviv.Not that close,but close enough for the issue to be well publicised here

I actually "claim" deaths on both sides are the fault of Hamas. It may be our bombs that do the killing, but when you force people to sleep on bombs, you're responsible for their fate.

You can't even say effort isn't taken to make said people leave the area beforehand, several times. Becasue it is.

EDIT: Besides, Terror has always been about public opinion and fear. It's how it works. So obviously it would best served by death and destruction on all sides. Deaths on the Israeli side are a "win", deaths on the Palestinian sides are "martyrs and victims". Meanwhile, for us, all dead are victims of a conflict we don't want.

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Väkirauta a écrit :

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CantripN a écrit :

Hamas

Could you, as an Israeli, tell me who has created Hamas?

Created? The Muslim Brothers movement (you know, the guys that were just ousted in Egypt and count as a Terror Group). When I say we helped, it's by not interrupting their work, mostly, when we knew they could be an asset later. That didn't work out so well, sadly.

CantripN, a friend of mine very much involved with protestation against the siege of the Gaza Strip (she's in Denmark, of all places) recently linked me to a column by Uri Avnery on a site for a movement called 'Gush Shalom'. From what I can tell, their stance, and his, is that both sides have it all wrong and that dialogue *without* mediators is the only way. Right now that seems like a miracle.

Have you heard of this movement or this writer? What he says resonates with me strongly but I can imagine there may be some Israelis who'd view his stance as harmfully anti-Zionist. Thoughts?

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1406281947/ is the article in question, for reference.

Charan, I've heard of this group before. This is one of many groups I support, to some level or other, actually. I am part of the peace camp on this side, after all.

That said, the siege is a necessity more than boon (at this time, at least). If you only knew what it prevents, DAILY, you'd probably agree. There's a reason Egypt helps maintan it. As part of a peace, it will be certainly removed.

Zionism is a complex term, btw. There really is no definition we can all agree on, and while people on the right wing would agree with what you say, I would not.

EDIT: On reading the article, though, there are a great many things I don't agree on in this case. Some other parts are true, sadly or otherwise. The last part, I agree with 100%, fully and without question (and has been the idea suggested by my own party for the last... 50 years or so? :D).

EDIT2:

"

"From what I can tell, their stance, and his, is that both sides have it all wrong and that dialogue *without* mediators is the only way. Right now that seems like a miracle."

As for this, that's been the consensus here for quite a while. And we've been at it for a while, to boot. Last elections saw several large parties devoted to the effort. Hamas is another issue, as the general sentiment is they don't represent the people, and Abbas does (at least mostly). I, personally, was all for talking to them directly, but as they are a de-facto Terrorist group, that complicated the matter.

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CantripN a écrit :

I actually "claim" deaths on both sides are the fault of Hamas. It may be our bombs that do the killing, but when you force people to sleep on bombs, you're responsible for their fate.

You can't even say effort isn't taken to make said people leave the area beforehand, several times. Becasue it is.

EDIT: Besides, Terror has always been about public opinion and fear. It's how it works. So obviously it would best served by death and destruction on all sides. Deaths on the Israeli side are a "win", deaths on the Palestinian sides are "martyrs and victims". Meanwhile, for us, all dead are victims of a conflict we don't want.

Ok so the actually Sadam was alone to blame for the death of thousands of people from the Baghad bombing and the aftermath,not the US.Also if you fuck my girlfriend and i kill you,you are the one to blame,not me for pulling the trigger.Sorry but i cannot buy in to that logic.

Let's move on to Chomsky(everyone who hates him can just ignore it) http://www.alternet.org/world/noam-chomsky-what-american-media-wont-tell-you-about-israel?page=0%2C0


Snippets:



Actually read the whole article

Meanwhile Roger Waters of Pink Floyd asks for boycotting Israel.Annie Lennox and Billy Joel canceled their shows there.The scientist Stephen Hawkins cancelced his conference in Israel as a protest against Israel's actions.

.Also in addition to the image Vakirauta posted,i d like to add that i even with no studying on the issue at all,it's hard to be sympathetic to israel when Tel Aviv looks like




And Gaza looks like


It's very easy to advocate Peace and blame Hamas for everything,when you have so much,and the others have so damn little...