Israel does it's best to become the most hated nation in the world

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1 - Wall of Text. Ouch. Use Spoilers, and make it shorter.

2 - That's partially true. But that's like saying 10 is 0 because you ignore the "1". Sure, without context, parts are true. As for why they have so damn little, you should ask yourself why the situation is far better in Judea, where the PLO is.

3 - Double Post. HUGE double post.

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Btw, if anyone wants to read a relatively unbiased, objective, and proffesional opinion (and wants to trust Google Translate or learn Hebrew): http://www.calcalist.co.il/local/articles/0,7340,L-3636739,00.html

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CantripN a écrit :

And what makes you think anyone here (or anywhere outside a terror group or a psychopath) wants to kill people?

Once you stop oversimplifying things into us/them, Israel/Palestine, you see things are much more complex. Mistakes were made on all sides, no side has clean hands, but one party (Hamas) is still a terrorist, and one isn't. More to the point, there are NO SIDES, at least not 2 clear ones, there are no US/THEM.
While I do agree the only real, lasting, solution is a non-violent one, you can't possibly equate terror with a military operation; That's akin to comparing crime to police-work. I don't agree the ground operation is a solution to anything long-term, but if it's leveraged to work out something better with the like-minded people from the other side, it's worth it.

Any nation has the right to "decide alone what's good or wrong, when to make peace and when to make war." as you put it, btw. That's beside the point.

If you call Hamas terrorist, then why don't you call Israel terrorist too, for killing civilians ? Or you will tell me, "oh it's Hamas fault, they are hiding behind civilians", always the same bullshit. Israel doesn't try to solve the problem by peace, but by violence, that's all.

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CantripN a écrit :

1 - Wall of Text. Ouch. Use Spoilers, and make it shorter.

2 - That's partially true. But that's like saying 10 is 0 because you ignore the "1". Sure, without context, parts are true. As for why they have so damn little, you should ask yourself why the situation is far better in Judea, where the PLO is.

3 - Double Post. HUGE double post.

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Btw, if anyone wants to read a relatively unbiased, objective, and proffesional opinion (and wants to trust Google Translate or learn Hebrew): http://www.calcalist.co.il/local/articles/0,7340,L-3636739,00.html

The situation is where it is,IMO,in the picture that Vakirauta posted on the last page that you ignored.You call this as a counter terrorism,and you ignore the benefits of Israel(and USA) that has come through the conflicts over the year.Justify that,and then we can start talking again.

I've got better things to do with my time than argue with people that don't listen, or are being deliberately dense. I actually work towards a peaceful resolution, you do not, so I don't feel the need to justify myself anymore. Arguing for the sake of arguing is silly.

Peace out.

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If you read the article I linked you'd see more shades of gray than you expect exist.

You guys should really stop looking for a victim, when no side is perfect. Looking at the problem doesn't help, look for a solution. Placing blame here or there is ultimately pointless, and so is the history. What matters is what happens next, and where we can take it.

Thanks for the response re: Gush Shalom. I've already made clear I refuse to take a side. I don't feel I've the right.

Psalm 122:6
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! “May they be secure who love you!

Genesis 12:3
I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Zechariah 12:1-14
The burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him: “Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah. On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who lift it will surely hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will gather against it. On that day, declares the Lord, I will strike every horse with panic, and its rider with madness. But for the sake of the house of Judah I will keep my eyes open, when I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. Then the clans of Judah shall say to themselves, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem have strength through the Lord of hosts, their God.’

Isaiah 60:12
For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste.

Zechariah 2:8
For thus said the Lord of hosts, after his glory sent me to the nations who plundered you, for he who touches you touches the apple of his eye:

Psalm 83:1-18
A Song. A Psalm of Asaph. O God, do not keep silence; do not hold your peace or be still, O God! For behold, your enemies make an uproar; those who hate you have raised their heads. They lay crafty plans against your people; they consult together against your treasured ones. They say, “Come, let us wipe them out as a nation; let the name of Israel be remembered no more!” For they conspire with one accord; against you they make a covenant—

Numbers 24:9
He crouched, he lay down like a lion and like a lioness; who will rouse him up? Blessed are those who bless you, and cursed are those who curse you.”

Isaiah 41:11-12
Behold, all who are incensed against you shall be put to shame and confounded; those who strive against you shall be as nothing and shall perish. You shall seek those who contend with you, but you shall not find them; those who war against you shall be as nothing at all.

Joel 3:1-3
“For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, on behalf of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations and have divided up my land, and have cast lots for my people, and have traded a boy for a prostitute, and have sold a girl for wine and have drunk it.

Romans 11:1-36
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

Malachi 3:6
“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

Joel 3:1
“For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 Chronicles 17:10
And the fear of the Lord fell upon all the kingdoms of the lands that were around Judah, and they made no war against Jehoshaphat.

Deuteronomy 28:1-68
“And if you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God. Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field. Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground and the fruit of your cattle, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.

Nehemiah 4:17-18
Who were building on the wall. Those who carried burdens were loaded in such a way that each labored on the work with one hand and held his weapon with the other. And each of the builders had his sword strapped at his side while he built. The man who sounded the trumpet was beside me.

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Deuteronomy 28:47-48
Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart, because of the abundance of all things, therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and lacking everything. And he will put a yoke of iron on your neck until he has destroyed you.

Leviticus 26:1-46
“You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the Lord your God. You shall keep my Sabbaths and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord. “If you walk in my statutes and observe my commandments and do them, then I will give you your rains in their season, and the land shall yield its increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. Your threshing shall last to the time of the grape harvest, and the grape harvest shall last to the time for sowing. And you shall eat your bread to the full and dwell in your land securely.

Deuteronomy 32:9-10
But the Lord's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage. “He found him in a desert land, and in the howling waste of the wilderness; he encircled him, he cared for him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

Numbers 31:3
So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian.

Ezekiel 39:1-29
“And you, son of man, prophesy against Gog and say, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. And I will turn you about and drive you forward, and bring you up from the uttermost parts of the north, and lead you against the mountains of Israel. Then I will strike your bow from your left hand, and will make your arrows drop out of your right hand. You shall fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your hordes and the peoples who are with you. I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. You shall fall in the open field, for I have spoken, declares the Lord God.

Proverbs 25:26
Like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked.

Psalm 144:1
Of David. Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle;

Psalm 46:1
To the choirmaster. Of the Sons of Korah. According to Alamoth. A Song. God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.

2 Chronicles 17:1-19
Jehoshaphat his son reigned in his place and strengthened himself against Israel. He placed forces in all the fortified cities of Judah and set garrisons in the land of Judah, and in the cities of Ephraim that Asa his father had captured. The Lord was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the earlier ways of his father David. He did not seek the Baals, but sought the God of his father and walked in his commandments, and not according to the practices of Israel. Therefore the Lord established the kingdom in his hand. And all Judah brought tribute to Jehoshaphat, and he had great riches and honor.

Judges 2:1
Now the angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, “I brought you up from Egypt and brought you into the land that I swore to give to your fathers. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you,

1 Samuel 8:11
He said, “These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen and to run before his chariots.

Jeremiah 32:17-44
‘Ah, Lord God! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you. You show steadfast love to thousands, but you repay the guilt of fathers to their children after them, O great and mighty God, whose name is the Lord of hosts, great in counsel and mighty in deed, whose eyes are open to all the ways of the children of man, rewarding each one according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds. You have shown signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, and to this day in Israel and among all mankind, and have made a name for yourself, as at this day. You brought your people Israel out of the land of Egypt with signs and wonders, with a strong hand and outstretched arm, and with great terror.

1 Samuel 13:19-20
Now there was no blacksmith to be found throughout all the land of Israel, for the Philistines said, “Lest the Hebrews make themselves swords or spears.” But every one of the Israelites went down to the Philistines to sharpen his plowshare, his mattock, his axe, or his sickle,

Matthew 11:4-30
And Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John what you hear and see: the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. And blessed is the one who is not offended by me.” As they went away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds concerning John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? What then did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Behold, those who wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.

1 Chronicles 20:1
In the spring of the year, the time when kings go out to battle, Joab led out the army and ravaged the country of the Ammonites and came and besieged Rabbah. But David remained at Jerusalem. And Joab struck down Rabbah and overthrew it.

1 Samuel 13:22-23
So on the day of the battle there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people with Saul and Jonathan, but Saul and Jonathan his son had them. And the garrison of the Philistines went out to the pass of Michmash.

Judges 5:8
When new gods were chosen, then war was in the gates. Was shield or spear to be seen among forty thousand in Israel?

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Obadiah 1:17
But in Mount Zion there shall be those who escape, and it shall be holy, and the house of Jacob shall possess their own possessions.

Genesis 9:5-6
And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man. “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.

Matthew 25:40
And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Exodus 22:2-3
If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

Matthew 23:1-39
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,

Matthew 6:31-33
Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Matthew 5:19
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Exodus 21:24-25
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Psalm 91:1-2
He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will abide in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say to the Lord, “My refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Now I simply say this: I pity whoever comes against Israel. No, I'm not Jewish. I'm Christian. Because of this, I know the value of Israel.

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Nightmare90 a écrit :

I think they still have a long way to walk bomb to knock USA off that place. :P

Do I miss something or why was Israel "reestablished" in the first place? Wasn't there something after world war 2 or am I mixing my history lessons up?

It's an old conflict lying deep with many nations involved and an artificial one induced, let's leave it at that. It escalated since many years but no one will embrace the floods of people fleeing their homes in a responsible manner. Too much harm for your own economy to let that happen, right?

I hate this one-sided media coverage. To the max.

Imagine a world without usa




well actually I think the problem is far deeper, not only concerning the top countries, but a pyramidal structure society issue

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GedPoE a écrit :

well actually I think the problem is far deeper, not only concerning the top countries, but a pyramidal structure society issue

Certainly.Of course if you are in one of the top countries,or especially the super power,you also want to keep the middle of the pyrimad reasonably satisfied,in order ton ensure your place in the top,and strengthen it further.

More of the disagreements in these thread,come from the fact that people trace the root of the problem in counter terrorism,as the western media implys.They view Hamas as a merely bloodthirsty terrorist organinasation,that has no interest in even their people,and their sole purpose is to eliminate the Jew population,so Israel does what it has to do,to counter them.They fail to see that Palestinians gradually lost over 90% of their land during the conflicts,they lost their homes,their jobs and their dignity.There are thousand refuges for years that have nowhere to go,while Israel always increases in wealth,power and influnce(asn so does USA beihnd the scenes).The point is that it does not seem that either a peacefull or a violent confrontation will lead Palestinians to reclaim their land.It is a dead end for them.

That's your mistake, in my view. You're assuming we don't see the facts, but nobody is discounting the fact they lost much, just the reasons are wrong (or partial). Any country grows in power given time, and the Palestinians had so much financial support you can't even imagine - it just went into Corruption/Terror for the most part, until recently on the PLO part. Leadership on the Palestinian side has historically done so very poorly for their people in the past, and it's only just getting better with Abbas. Not saying this side did much to help, but you can hardly place the blame solely on us, and we've (PLO and this side) been working to make things better for all parties for a WHILE.

Global media won't tell you about the day-to-day, or the gray, boring stuff, but things are getting better. This current situation is a setback, but it can also be a springboard forwards.

If you were actually here in the area and involved, you'd know the peace process is slowly moving ahead, even if you don't hear about it on global media. Even now, even today.