FOCUS ON YOUR VISION - ENGAGING COMBAT!!! SUGGESTIONS!!!

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Druktar#0359 a écrit :

In my eyes this game does not need "engaging combat" during the campaign. The campaign should be a tutorial that teaches you how to play the game and the mechanics that will wait for you in the endgame.

I don't think that's really true. By the time you are "end-game" there is no traditional combat pacing left to engage in, it changes to things that can kill strong characters. Positional minigames mostly. I think they should intentionally pace the campaign and early prog to be an experience, and in the endgame we need different types of stuff that can kill powerful players.

But a good point you made, is they also need endless content for these players who want less but more difficult/ rewarding monsters on their screen in the end-game.

GGG should add alternate content to the end-game, that has less monsters that are more dangerous, without making maps in general worse. I know we have Sekhemmas/ Trial, but this stuff is really not fun for someone who likes mapping, and pretty much every reward being backloaded makes it feel like a massive time sink for an optimized build.

I think they should leave the top-end and regular mapping out of these changes, because it is just a completely different community and sentiment, and balancing the game to feel good for experienced players with way less monsters in general seems pretty impossible. Whenever they have tried this, it has caused most of the experienced playerbase to just quit the league after a week.

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AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

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Druktar#0359 a écrit :

In my eyes this game does not need "engaging combat" during the campaign. The campaign should be a tutorial that teaches you how to play the game and the mechanics that will wait for you in the endgame.

I don't think that's really true. By the time you are "end-game" there is no traditional combat pacing left to engage in, it changes to things that can kill strong characters. Positional minigames mostly. I think they should intentionally pace the campaign and early prog to be an experience, and in the endgame we need different types of stuff that can kill powerful players.

But a good point you made, is they also need endless content for these players who want less but more difficult/ rewarding monsters on their screen in the end-game.

GGG should add alternate content to the end-game, that has less monsters that are more dangerous, without making maps in general worse. I know we have Sekhemmas/ Trial, but this stuff is really not fun for someone who likes mapping.

I think they should leave the top-end and regular mapping out of these changes, because it is just a completely different community and sentiment, and balancing the game to feel good for experienced players with way less monsters in general seems pretty impossible.

You have to keep in mind that people will have to have this experience again and again and again...

I doubt that most players want to have the same challenge each and every time a new season start to get to what they perceive as the "goal" of the game. As said it cant be "beating campaign" when a bunch of systems wait behind that you have to do to get certain rewards. Might be wrong here but thats how i see it.

It should not be a complete walk in the park and have some challenges for sure or as you put it "provide an experience" especially for first timers, but it needs some room for experienced players as well to basically rush it when doing it for the x time. That is quite hard to achieve, but would be the best solution (in my eyes).

I just think it would be a lot easier to provide different challenges and forms of engaging combat in the endgame that can cater to a lot more people simply by offering way more options/modes that can range from challenging boss fights with proper mechanics to endless dungeons like delve and so on then doing so during a campaign. As said mostly because in PoE the campaign isnt the "thing to beat" already compared to souls like games.

To be honest my goal each season is neither. I dont care about Uberbosses or reaching delve depth x in PoE 1 (which i only played during settlers anyway) but playing different builds and getting them to a point where i get either bored with them or satisfied with the state they are in. This season i played: Deadeye/Thorns/2 minion builds/Blood Mage spark/Arty Totem Warbringer/Witchhunter Galvanic/Grenade Merc/Lich Crossbow/Lich Contagion

Most of them were based on guides, all of them personalised (i like to try to improve/alter builds) and some "home made" (minion as example and Witchhunter) since i played those in other seasons and know my way around on those by now. None of thoese were challenged and the only difference was the level where you could achieve the breaking point and stuff became easy.

But thats me and i get that some folks stick to one char and expect to be challenged (in whatever form) which is a valid point as well. My fun does not have to be your fun. I just doubt that the fun of a souls like campaign would fit into this game for most people, but i can see some options to provide experiences that get close to that in the endgame especially. At least as long as you have to repeat the camapign each season to play the new content the season provides. No even Elden Ring forced you to do that.

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Druktar#0359 a écrit :

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AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

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Druktar#0359 a écrit :

In my eyes this game does not need "engaging combat" during the campaign. The campaign should be a tutorial that teaches you how to play the game and the mechanics that will wait for you in the endgame.

I don't think that's really true. By the time you are "end-game" there is no traditional combat pacing left to engage in, it changes to things that can kill strong characters. Positional minigames mostly. I think they should intentionally pace the campaign and early prog to be an experience, and in the endgame we need different types of stuff that can kill powerful players.

You have to keep in mind that people will have to have this experience again and again and again...

When you have currency and items from previous characters, obviously it's faster. Nothing too wrong with the current pace of the campaign after boss HP got buffed anyway, it does sort of provide that souls-esque experience.

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Druktar#0359 a écrit :

I just think it would be a lot easier to provide different challenges and forms of engaging combat in the endgame that can cater to a lot more people simply by offering way more options/modes

Yep and that is a valid point specifically in the endgame. But most players don't reach the endgame. Most of the people who complain about blasting, don't blast. Go figure. So give them what they want, just don't make it too painful or slow to get through for people that are usually fast, and at the end of it, let me blast.

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AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

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What i meant is you have to do it each season from 0 to hero. A campaign that keeps you busy for "weeks" each seasonstart is a NoGo especially for people that did it a couple times before.

Blasting is as valid as wanting a challenge. But for me the "proper" challenges should belong into the endgame and blasting should always be viable.

If you do it properly the "blasting" folks will provide stuff to the market and the guys doing the "challenge" will provide something else. Both sides win and both sides are valid and needed to "succeed". SSF would need builds that can do both but hey thats what you opted in for.

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Druktar#0359 a écrit :

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AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

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What i meant is you have to do it each season from 0 to hero. A campaign that keeps you busy for "weeks" each seasonstart is a NoGo especially for people that did it a couple times before.

It doesn't keep you busy for weeks. Nobody is asking for them to make the campaign 100 hours of killing monsters long. They just want a game to play man, and all you have to do is actually play the game in the campaign too. It's not hard.

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Druktar#0359 a écrit :

If you do it properly the "blasting" folks will provide stuff to the market and the guys doing the "challenge" will provide something else. Both sides win and both sides are valid and needed to "succeed". SSF would need builds that can do both but hey thats what you opted in for.

Yeah but that's a solution for alternate content in endgame, where most people don't reach. It is a very small subset of players who are complaining very loudly about "combat pacing", and most of them do not engage in endgame.

What you are talking about already exists with Sekkhema's and Chaos Trials. There does need to be more and those have to be improved though, so it's still a good point.

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Druktar#0359 a écrit :

The campaign should be a tutorial that teaches you how to play the game and the mechanics that will wait for you in the endgame. The endgame then can have different "modes" and stuff that is engaging in different ways but this endgame is what is the biggest difference to all the souls like out there. In those beating the campaign (maybe even a couple times via NG+) is the goal which simply is not the case here. Here the endgame starts when souls like games end...

That is what GGG needs to focus on: more stuff to do and with challenges that keep you engaged and not making a camapign harder/more engaging people have to do each season just to get to the intended endgame with "endless" content.

Hard disagree here.
Tutorial is the riverbank area, when you actually got few popup hints about the UI. After the first town the game begins, and it was well done in 0.2, where campaign start to be challanging and interesting from the very first area.

Campaign is the core of the game, where your character is actually grows, and thats the entire point of ARPGs.
In endgame its mostly min-maxing the build.

I'm ok if skills and build-enabling things would be available little earlier than in maps. But the campaign is actually the most engaging part of the game, where you have to deal with the boss before you can proceed.

Trade in game makes it obsolete tho, when you can get basically best items for each act for free, its like legal cheat here that makes campaign boring and speedrunning it before you actually see some challenge. In other words in trade softcore you have to skip 80% of game just to get to the "real game" where the challenge supposed to be (funny enough currently its not, since in 0.3 its become too easy and become just a casino where you must pull the slot machine handle as fast as possible to be "effective")

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AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

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Druktar#0359 a écrit :

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AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

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What i meant is you have to do it each season from 0 to hero. A campaign that keeps you busy for "weeks" each seasonstart is a NoGo especially for people that did it a couple times before.

It doesn't keep you busy for weeks. Nobody is asking for them to make the campaign 100 hours of killing monsters long. They just want a game to play man, and all you have to do is actually play the game in the campaign too. It's not hard.

It does not atm for you and me. It already does keep some people busy for weeks for different reasons. It ranges from skill issues (yes those people exist as well b- no offense but just a fact) to real life reasons and leads to people not even finishing the campaign for loads of reasons.

Others like you and me blast through from Day 1 of a season and are done after a day or 2.

Thats why i shy away from a "engaging campaign" some folks ask for in the thread. Especially when it is coming from somebody that clearly (i dont mean you specifically here) wants a more souls like exyperience already in the campaign. In the Endgame it can be "gloves off - in your face".

Somebody coming from Elden Ring isnt challenged, but that does not mean that others arent. For those the goal of "PoE 2 = challenging combat" was actually achieved.

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Druktar#0359 a écrit :

Somebody coming from Elden Ring isnt challenged, but that does not mean that others arent. For those the goal of "PoE 2 = challenging combat" was actually achieved.

Yeah IMO you're right man. It's not bad pacing as it is. The boss buffs probably did enough already. I doubt any of these people complaining have even tested it after the changes.

Try not to listen to the doomers, honestly, it is just a common tactic on this forum to completely misrepresent actual experiences and post inflammatory content just to get a higher post/ view count.

Try to ignore them and post your own threads rather than bump theirs and argue with them, because it kind of just gives it more credence.

If we were not here posting real opinions, they literally would have no frame of reference of what they should be actually saying, and they would just sit here and make themselves look as clueless as they are.

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Nikuksis#6962 a écrit :

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Druktar#0359 a écrit :

The campaign should be a tutorial that teaches you how to play the game and the mechanics that will wait for you in the endgame. The endgame then can have different "modes" and stuff that is engaging in different ways but this endgame is what is the biggest difference to all the souls like out there. In those beating the campaign (maybe even a couple times via NG+) is the goal which simply is not the case here. Here the endgame starts when souls like games end...

That is what GGG needs to focus on: more stuff to do and with challenges that keep you engaged and not making a camapign harder/more engaging people have to do each season just to get to the intended endgame with "endless" content.

Hard disagree here.
Tutorial is the riverbank area, when you actually got few popup hints about the UI. After the first town the game begins, and it was well done in 0.2, where campaign start to be challanging and interesting from the very first area.

Campaign is the core of the game, where your character is actually grows, and thats the entire point of ARPGs.
In endgame its mostly min-maxing the build.

I'm ok if skills and build-enabling things would be available little earlier than in maps. But the campaign is actually the most engaging part of the game, where you have to deal with the boss before you can proceed.

Trade in game makes it obsolete tho, when you can get basically best items for each act for free, its like legal cheat here that makes campaign boring and speedrunning it before you actually see some challenge. In other words in trade softcore you have to skip 80% of game just to get to the "real game" where the challenge supposed to be (funny enough currently its not, since in 0.3 its become too easy and become just a casino where you must pull the slot machine handle as fast as possible to be "effective")

I dont think the campaign needs items to be finished fast. I finished it each season start within the first weekend on a chars that did not have anything that got bought to speedrun. Only difference was that i needed increaasingly less tries for the bosses from season to season. One way or another I wont pay the insane prices at season start especially.

Yes on twinks i buy stuff and thats not a cheat, it is simply the option i gained for finishing the content once before in that season.

But if trade is your problem and you cant stop yourself from using it before the campaign is finished thats on you and not the game. At this point it is simply up to you to use the "cheat" or not.

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Druktar#0359 a écrit :

Spoiler

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Nikuksis#6962 a écrit :

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Druktar#0359 a écrit :

The campaign should be a tutorial that teaches you how to play the game and the mechanics that will wait for you in the endgame. The endgame then can have different "modes" and stuff that is engaging in different ways but this endgame is what is the biggest difference to all the souls like out there. In those beating the campaign (maybe even a couple times via NG+) is the goal which simply is not the case here. Here the endgame starts when souls like games end...

That is what GGG needs to focus on: more stuff to do and with challenges that keep you engaged and not making a camapign harder/more engaging people have to do each season just to get to the intended endgame with "endless" content.

Hard disagree here.
Tutorial is the riverbank area, when you actually got few popup hints about the UI. After the first town the game begins, and it was well done in 0.2, where campaign start to be challanging and interesting from the very first area.

Campaign is the core of the game, where your character is actually grows, and thats the entire point of ARPGs.
In endgame its mostly min-maxing the build.

I'm ok if skills and build-enabling things would be available little earlier than in maps. But the campaign is actually the most engaging part of the game, where you have to deal with the boss before you can proceed.

Trade in game makes it obsolete tho, when you can get basically best items for each act for free, its like legal cheat here that makes campaign boring and speedrunning it before you actually see some challenge. In other words in trade softcore you have to skip 80% of game just to get to the "real game" where the challenge supposed to be (funny enough currently its not, since in 0.3 its become too easy and become just a casino where you must pull the slot machine handle as fast as possible to be "effective")

I dont think the campaign needs items to be finished fast. I finished it each season start within the first weekend on a chars that did not have anything that got bought to speedrun. Only difference was that i needed increaasingly less tries for the bosses from season to season. One way or another I wont pay the insane prices at season start especially.

Yes on twinks i buy stuff and thats not a cheat, it is simply the option i gained for finishing the content once before in that season.

But if trade is your problem and you cant stop yourself from using it before the campaign is finished thats on you and not the game. At this point it is simply up to you to use the "cheat" or not.

That is one of the people who is not really into endgame and kinda just sits here bumping threads like these, like I was talking about, by the way.

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AverBeg7#1689 a écrit :

Try to ignore them and post your own threads rather than bump theirs and argue with them, because it kind of just gives it more credence.

If we were not here posting real opinions, they literally would have no frame of reference of what they should be actually saying, and they would just sit here and make themselves look as clueless as they are.