1-portal grew on me, now i really want it to stay!

"

Mashgesture#2912 a écrit :

Clearly is a magnitude when people are talking about punishment

Should we just get rid of something punishing in general?

Dying in punishing, should we get rid of the ability for your character to lose all its health?

Hopefully your portal thing doesnt happen either. Theyve stated, both mark and johnathan, they are willing to tune every dial before considering it.

well same with expedition / archnemesis. maybe they should balance their game better or stop play op builds while testing or just add 1 more difficulty level. but what do i know. even in poe 1 people complain of the game being too easy when you can have 100% delirium maps that amount if i am not mistaken to 96% less damage taken. you can add a shit ton essence on bosses. and probably the worst map mods and also torment spiritis. game too easy.

Arg!!!

Ok

Its not punishing.
Realize you just said that you think people should be punished.
I would like you to consider that. lets assume you mean some kind off friction?, you need some, so you can take it away later and give a sense of progression.

You were slow, now you are fast.
You couldn't afford to pay attention, now you throw divines at babies for fun.
I know some game psychology.

However what you have here are several systems who's friction builds up into a blast furnace of time wastage.

The clunky UI (friction)
The lack of determinism in item acquiring (friction)

This get's its own special moment.... THE TRIALS.
A game mechanic that is not optional.
Has its own life and death mechanics.
Requires items that only drop in that area, in order to complete the area.
Are only useful in that area.. I mean .. its built to waste your time.
why 21-28 rooms of monotony .. you think people are going to level 2 characters...(i was fixing a typo.. and thought i never counted how many in total you would need to do ... is it 60 something rooms 70 ? all together for 4.

Is entirely randomized and contains the following afflictions, cant see rewards, cant see whats in the next room, taken to rooms at random. At which point you cannot call it a skill contest of any kind as player options are reduced to click next.

Full of randomized content that can invalidate builds.
Favors ranged combat over melee.
Has a thriving business of paying to bypass it.

One portal one death , the setup , the mapping ... i can write but in the end, its just not worth it. For what ?

If you don't use the market the game has no substance whatsoever, in terms of itemization, slam orb item good, slam orb item good, slam orb ..ohhhh item bad, sell item.

SSF - there is no reason to play.

League = hi i finished campaign and didn't slam any orbs, i stockpiled.
cha ching - T15

The thing is ...
I am not convinced that all the issues the community are "convinced they will be addressing" are issues to GGG.

I think this friction ... is design.

also you didnt answer on the campaign infinite boss tries, almost no penalty on boss.
and find me a game played by people irl that will ask you to farm for 2 hours before you have 1 retry.

If the one portal mechanic stays as it is in the game when it releases, then I won't be playing POE2, nor will I keep up-to-date with news or patches (if it gets "patched" then I won't know about it). I'm not a streamer or anything and can be considered more or less casual so I doubt it matters, still though, I highly doubt I'm the only one.

There are really, when it comes down to it, three mechanics which make this game abhorrent and increasingly frustrating to play:

1. One portal/death map system.
2. Waypoint / maps tier drops (drops should be -1/0/+1 of the map your running).
3. Suckamas honor mechanic.

Then there are a couple of "easy" improvements to the game that could be implemented, namely with belt slots and the charms:

1. Belts should have 1 slot for item level 1-30, 2 slots for 30-60, 3 slots for 61+
2. Charms should have a passive base resistance and an active component which uses charges. Each would be affected by the item level of the charm.

GGG really needs to think about whether or not to go forward and keep these mechanics, because if they do, the game itself won't do as well as it could or should.

"

SerialF#4835 a écrit :

the big flaw in your difficulty=punishment paragraphs is that it can apply to all level of punishment.

what if tomorrow ggg adds, you lose 1 level when die. it s punishment so it s good.
you lose 1 random item. it s punishment so it s good.
you lose 1 random stash tab of items. punishment so it s good.

makes 0 sense. what makes sense is YOU LIKE THE BALANCE POE 2 HAS NOW. and a shit ton of players wont like the 1 portal.

Completely missed the point....never once did I say ALL punishments are equally "good". I hate playing HC, for example, because I hate the punishment of permanent death. It's not fun for me.

I described WHY the 1-portal was NOT too far, and why it is good in the context of PoE 2. And you ignored that to make a bad point.

"

cowmoo275#3095 a écrit :

"

SerialF#4835 a écrit :

the big flaw in your difficulty=punishment paragraphs is that it can apply to all level of punishment.

what if tomorrow ggg adds, you lose 1 level when die. it s punishment so it s good.
you lose 1 random item. it s punishment so it s good.
you lose 1 random stash tab of items. punishment so it s good.

makes 0 sense. what makes sense is YOU LIKE THE BALANCE POE 2 HAS NOW. and a shit ton of players wont like the 1 portal.

Completely missed the point....never once did I say ALL punishments are equally "good". I hate playing HC, for example, because I hate the punishment of permanent death. It's not fun for me.

I described WHY the 1-portal was NOT too far, and why it is good in the context of PoE 2. And you ignored that to make a bad point.

At the end of the day, if only 100 people like the 1 portal/death mechanic and the other 118,900 players hate it and consider it to be game-breaking, then GGG needs to change it, no matter if it is in their design philosophy for the game or not.

"

_rt_#4636 a écrit :

,

All your response does is.....the same thing I'm doing to the other extreme. You are taking every form of "punishment" and re-framing it to fit your argument, labeling it as NOT a punishment. But that doesn't stop....all these things from being punishments inflicted on the player for failure.

Restriction IS punishment (HC, nuzlocke, others). It's a self-inflicted punishment. Resetting an encounter IS punishment (PoE 2 campaign bosses, Dark Souls), and therefore difficulty. That being said, Dark Souls is a wildly different type of game, more closely related to my "side scroller" example than PoE. Perhaps this was my fault by opening up this conversation to different genres, I was trying to illustrate a point that instead muddled the conversation.

BECAUSE PoE is "less challenging" in moment to moment encounters, the challenge is elsewhere. It has to be. The pace is vastly different, the power is vastly different, the skills are vastly different, everything about the game is DIFFERENT from Dark Souls. It isn't "cheap"...it fits into the game its being fit into.

In fact, every single game in existence has a different set of punishment, reward, time, mechanical difficulty, etc. You seem to have missed that part of my first post (i think it was this thread?). Difficulty comes in MULTIPLE FORMS. Thus, punishment also comes in multiple forms.

We are talking about PoE 2, and by extension PoE 1. The PUNISHMENT of having only 1 attempt is difficulty as it relates to PoE 2, and PoE 2 gameplay. You want them to completely remake the game from the ground up into Dark Souls so that they can adopt that "punishment" system? They can't.


Just as you accuse me of "not playing TRULY difficult games with minimal punishments", you are writing off PoE in its entirety (and others in the same camp) simply because it doesn't fit your Dark Souls difficulty / punishment type. That doesn't make it lazy.....it makes it different.

BTW, in my earlier posts I asked for a "universal definition" of difficulty....because that is what seems to be lacking here. You and others appear to only appreciate ONE form of difficulty -- mechanical -- while completely ignoring the other types of difficulty. This is the same as, within PoE, comparing uber bossing to mapping: they are worlds apart. Mapping is far far FAR easier in terms of mechanical difficulty, and thus the punishment is more severe. THAT is why arbiter got 6 portals back, but maps did not. Time too, but GGG realized that the punishment for Arbiter did not fit the MECHANICAL challenges of the fight which were already punishing enough. This is NOT true of everyday mapping.


Just like "fun", people will find different forms of difficulty ACTUALLY difficult. But, as I said before, punishment is intertwined with difficulty to the point where the difficulty cannot exist without it. Mapping in PoE 1 was wildly different with 6 portals, than mapping is in PoE 2 with 1. That alone speaks volumes of its success as a layer of difficulty.

"

cowmoo275#3095 a écrit :

All your response does is.....the same thing I'm doing to the other extreme. You are taking every form of "punishment" and re-framing it to fit your argument, labeling it as NOT a punishment. But that doesn't stop....all these things from being punishments inflicted on the player for failure.

Restriction IS punishment (HC, nuzlocke, others). It's a self-inflicted punishment. Resetting an encounter IS punishment (PoE 2 campaign bosses, Dark Souls), and therefore difficulty. That being said, Dark Souls is a wildly different type of game, more closely related to my "side scroller" example than PoE. Perhaps this was my fault by opening up this conversation to different genres, I was trying to illustrate a point that instead muddled the conversation.

BECAUSE PoE is "less challenging" in moment to moment encounters, the challenge is elsewhere. It has to be. The pace is vastly different, the power is vastly different, the skills are vastly different, everything about the game is DIFFERENT from Dark Souls. It isn't "cheap"...it fits into the game its being fit into.

In fact, every single game in existence has a different set of punishment, reward, time, mechanical difficulty, etc. You seem to have missed that part of my first post (i think it was this thread?). Difficulty comes in MULTIPLE FORMS. Thus, punishment also comes in multiple forms.

We are talking about PoE 2, and by extension PoE 1. The PUNISHMENT of having only 1 attempt is difficulty as it relates to PoE 2, and PoE 2 gameplay. You want them to completely remake the game from the ground up into Dark Souls so that they can adopt that "punishment" system? They can't.


Just as you accuse me of "not playing TRULY difficult games with minimal punishments", you are writing off PoE in its entirety (and others in the same camp) simply because it doesn't fit your Dark Souls difficulty / punishment type. That doesn't make it lazy.....it makes it different.

BTW, in my earlier posts I asked for a "universal definition" of difficulty....because that is what seems to be lacking here. You and others appear to only appreciate ONE form of difficulty -- mechanical -- while completely ignoring the other types of difficulty. This is the same as, within PoE, comparing uber bossing to mapping: they are worlds apart. Mapping is far far FAR easier in terms of mechanical difficulty, and thus the punishment is more severe. THAT is why arbiter got 6 portals back, but maps did not. Time too, but GGG realized that the punishment for Arbiter did not fit the MECHANICAL challenges of the fight which were already punishing enough. This is NOT true of everyday mapping.

How did you fail to understand what I wrote? Maybe that was too much text and you didn't bother reading but you felt compelled to reply anyway...
I never reframed punishment. I said those games barely punish you and they're still much harder and challenging than PoE ever was. That's why "punishment" and "difficulty" are two completely different things.
In fact, games today are much harder than older games but strangely they have vastly less punishment and are much more respectful of player's time. Ironically, PoE, in itself, is among the easiest games I've played and it's literally the most disrespectful one regarding the time I invested in it. I wonder why there's a correlation there...

Also, saying "adding restriction is just punishing yourself" and comparing Nuzlocke to HC is one of the worst takes I've ever seen in an argument regarding video game design.

You have a warped view of what difficulty truly means. No wonder you think PoE is even remotely difficult/challenging.
You'll probably never understand why you're fundamentally wrong, and it's fine.
I guess wasting more time in this discussion is pointless.

PS: I already defined difficulty earlier, unfortunately you'll very likely disagree because it has zero room to include "punishment" as a form of natural difficulty.

"

saviornt#2187 a écrit :

At the end of the day, if only 100 people like the 1 portal/death mechanic and the other 118,900 players hate it and consider it to be game-breaking, then GGG needs to change it, no matter if it is in their design philosophy for the game or not.

this goes both ways btw, and just by the number game i'm more inclined to believe its the opposite of your thesis

"

AintCare#6513 a écrit :

"

saviornt#2187 a écrit :

At the end of the day, if only 100 people like the 1 portal/death mechanic and the other 118,900 players hate it and consider it to be game-breaking, then GGG needs to change it, no matter if it is in their design philosophy for the game or not.

this goes both ways btw, and just by the number game i'm more inclined to believe its the opposite of your thesis

True. Over the years there were always some ppl who demanded that the exp loss has to be removed for basically the same reasons, but they were never enough to form a group even close to a majority.