[feedback] Uber Elder fight design has bad parts and promoting cancer playstyle

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Marxone a écrit :

Or if you can't do dmg, you just follow the mechanics correctly - there are people who killed UElder with Flame Dash ffs.

Do you even know, what you are talking about ?
If you have no dps and can't kill the propagator before they poop everywhere, you are screwed, period.

The flame dash guy did kill the propagator with flame dash.


Anyway, power creep can provide tons of damage now, even with flame fash it seems.

It is literally embarrassing if you can't do uber elder with the amount of power we have.

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DivineChampion a écrit :

Each time i fight Uber Elder i have this impression. Fight design:
- where the main complexity is to keep track of 4+ targets at the same time (Elder, Shaper, madness propagator, vortex) [hint: humans are not designed to keep track of multiple targets at the same time];
- which contains almost unavoidable death (Elder's unavoidable 90%+ action speed slow (siphon) + Shaper's beam/balls/teleport slam = 90% unavoidable death);
- which has no recovery from previous stages (decay/votex remains forever and eventually makes fight impossible to win);
- which is literally bypassed with closed eyes by DPS meta cancer builds (who push Elder/Shaper into next stages in a few seconds effectively preventing them from use of their skills), but makes players who prefer to not mindlessly follow DPS meta feel themselves as shit (like i currently feel myself after 2 weeks of tries and 8 wasted fragment sets);

is bad design. Since 3.2 you fixed lags (which were source of 6/6 deaths) but this awful design keystones are remaining. The worst thing is you forced this fight as a challenge and now i have to level up cancer meta build only to be able to complete this challenge.

How to fix this fight:
1. Make vortex/decay disappear after each of 3 portal stages.
2. Siphon: Keep movement speed slow, remove action speed slow. The only thing which action speed slow makes is forcing Kaom roots while shitting on everyone who is not using it.

It's probably too late for me to try and inject my thoughts on this because the trolling and flaming have long since begun, but I'm going to try to get us back on topic anyway:

I cannot disagree with the OP strongly enough, but not for any of the reasons I've seen so far. Put simply, the Uber Elder is the hardest content POE has currently (outside of 800+ delve bosses, which simply aren't accessible by most players within a 3 month league due to how long it takes to get that deep), which is why I don't want it to be nerfed. If anything, I want it to be buffed, because I don't want the hardest thing in any game I play to be something I can beat without serious effort and planning.

And I don't mean this in an elitist hipster way at all. I'm not going to say "it's too easy git gud" or "powercreep blahblahblah." I'm simply saying that real challenge is the only thing that makes a victory worthwhile. I bought D3 on launch day, played through it with my friends on a few of the classes, and quit playing within the first month because it was easy and shallow and I was too bored to play when nobody else was online. I don't think anyone would argue that you can sleepwalk your way through all of the endgame content with Arc Mines (at least the 3.5 version, since we don't know what's gonna happen in the spell rebalance). But when I first tried it out back in Incursion league, I didn't even make it to lvl 75 because I was just plain bored with the complete lack of challenge.

The reason I kept playing POE was because it was so challenging. It took me several 3-month leagues before I beat Uber Atziri for the first time, but this never bothered me; I liked the idea of there being something that was too difficult for me to pull off on my self-made jank builds. It made it that much more rewarding when I finally pulled it off (Prophecy league I think, when I started playing during Rampage. So... however long that is, close to 2 full years).

So if you think Uber Elder is too difficult to beat on an off-meta build, you shouldn't want it to be easier. Beating a boss only because the devs nerfed it is a hollow victory at best, and it's a path that I'd hope most people wouldn't want POE to go down.

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鬼殺し a écrit :

The OP is right in that these boss fights do promote homogenised, meta gameplay. But everyone else is right in that if you expect to down an end-game boss, you had better fucking be willing to do whatever it takes to do so.

Anything promote meta gameplay. Mapping does. Delve does. Even lab promote his own kind of meta. And any other game i can think off does promote meta (solo uber tristam? smiter was your best bet). We could apply the same concept in life and it would still be true.

Yet Uber Elder is less extreme since it ALLOW non-meta skills to be effective. Just not effective as meta skills. Duh there will be a gap. To fill this gap you need skills. If you don't want to get skilled for that particular fight just use meta stuff. YOU CAN'T HAVE BOTH. Or the boss would be a joke. Again a dude killed UE on day 3 or 4 on a ssfhc private league using cleave.

About the dps-check: i don't get why this come as a surprise. In a game where equipment progression play a huge role players don't expect that a fight check if your equipment is up-to-date at least, both defensively and offensively. It is normal to expect that an end game fight should be approachable with 10k dps?

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etkratos a écrit :

Then some kills with no meta stuff:

Very interesting, lets take a look!

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etkratos a écrit :

Tornado Shot (flaskless) (yeah it's meta but not for boss fights)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsHYnGn4E9U

Stacking abyss jewels, all 2-abyss socketed uniques, Farrul's Fur, Bow + Mirrage Archer. High DPS. It is the most meta it could be in 3.2. The only "non-meta" is skill TS which is still considered as meta on a Deadeye.

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etkratos a écrit :

Bleed Earthquake (this is off-meta as it can get, he even downgraded his weap)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqlXsnJiPqw&t=433s

Nice clean kill. But, he is always playing meta - Path of DPS. Always. You don't even know what is off-meta, don't you?

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etkratos a écrit :

lvl 36 uber elder kill (he's good player but still)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLCkEb5ZFLs

Abyss jewel stacking, no life/defense/resist passives/items (full DPS setup), Scourge Arrow + Mirrage Archer. Very high DPS. It is the most meta possible. As i said in the discussion thread of this video, the only great think about it is the fact he dodged every single ability of UE (while there was not too many of them because of his high DPS).

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etkratos a écrit :

Dude on a ssfhc private league that allow only -non meta melee skills- + some other restriction. Think he pulled the kill on day 3 using cleave or sweep?.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/atwkoz/steelmage_finishes_quins_ssfhc_melee_uber_elder/

Great kill, but... Jugg, Kaom's roots, 427 pDPS jewelled foil, insane 6L body armour +150 life +5% life +maim. 9 logouts. It is meta. The only "non-meta" is skill Cleave which is still decent 200% dmg multiplier with built-in fortify (only disadvantage of it - being melee). At the end he says "i will never play melee again". Even for one of the best SSFHC racers it was that much hard. Now try to imagine how UE would look like without Kaom's roots/Unstoppable (same character, same player). It is not about being melee, it is about fight design.

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etkratos a écrit :

Either you'll become good too or you do use some meta stuff that close the gap.

The irony is every UE kill video you posted was with meta AF buids.

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etkratos a écrit :

Again a dude killed UE on day 3 or 4 on a ssfhc private league using cleave.

He had already lots of gear (+maps) ready as this was not his first character.
And I would have been curious to see him do it with something else than a Jugg.

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DivineChampion a écrit :

Even for one of the best SSFHC racers it was that much hard. Now try to imagine how UE would look like without Kaom's roots/Unstoppable (same character, same player). It is not about being melee, it is about fight design.

^
Pretty much, still those are tools that the game offers.
I find it ridiculously stupid that Kaom's roots and Juggs allow to trivialize the slows in this fight to be honest ...

@DivineChampion

Tornado shot> Seldom used as a boss skill. True the dude used abyssal stuff. With abyssal stuff you can make everything work. Agreed. That mean that even non-meta skills can work if build properly?

Earthquake> This is when i got confused. Berserker (nobody play it), Earthquake (nobody play it), Bleed (dunno what to say here). But you complain the dude goes for dps (and his dps is nothing special btw specially when he switch to disfavour). No specially good items either. For what he should have strived for to make his build non=meta???

36Kill > The fact that he abuses dps - but has to dodge everything - is precisely the point of that video. You could do the reverse. Get into the fight with a cyclone slayer/scion with 10k leech and 200k dps. You suddently don't have to dodge anything but the fight take much longer. Or rf, same stuff.

3DaysSSFHC > I get your point about him being that good. But is still ssfhc using cleave. On day 3. To kill the final boss of the game. Yes he uses juggernaut, wich is dope for that fight, but still that's the only meta thing he does.

Since at this point is true that your meaning of meta differ from mine, i would like you to suggest a build that you consider non-meta and not able to do the fight?

I hope you understand i'm trying to pick a fight with you bro, i'm sincerely curious about why you think this way.

@Frutz

I was unaware of that not being his first char. Still i would consider that pretty inpressive

And yes. The kaom/jugg really trivialize the slow thing. But, as i was trying to point out, you can live without them, if your timing is right and you get out of that shit before it slow you.

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etkratos a écrit :

I was unaware of that not being his first char. Still i would consider that pretty inpressive

I never said it wasn't impressive, it is freaking incredible to me.

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MrsDeath_ a écrit :

lol sure i can :D that fight is a joke.
+ i dont follow meta i create them ^^
people think other players are as bad as them or worse.
in my case its true. but in your case you ve never even seen the uber elder. which is really ironic when you judge me.
i speak from my 100s of uber elder fights while you talk out of your a.. with no experience :D

I just had to throw my 2 cents in after reading this forum. Like 90% of your builds use a loreweave... This is not original or creative. Try again.


[To everyone else]

Anyway, overall I agree that the fight is tuned for OP builds. The problem isn't the fight though, it is the OP builds. I think damage numbers, mobility, speed, survivability, and items need to be re-balanced and brought into line with one another more evenly. I don't mean RS3 levels on sterilization regarding weapon damage, but some builds have run miles ahead of the others in terms of clear speed, and single target DPS. This renders many legitimate, intended, and supported play-styles/skills competitively obsolete.

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KiwiGivl a écrit :

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MrsDeath_ a écrit :

lol sure i can :D that fight is a joke.
+ i dont follow meta i create them ^^
people think other players are as bad as them or worse.
in my case its true. but in your case you ve never even seen the uber elder. which is really ironic when you judge me.
i speak from my 100s of uber elder fights while you talk out of your a.. with no experience :D

I just had to throw my 2 cents in after reading this forum. Like 90% of your builds use a loreweave... This is not original or creative. Try again.


[To everyone else]

Anyway, overall I agree that the fight is tuned for OP builds. The problem isn't the fight though, it is the OP builds. I think damage numbers, mobility, speed, survivability, and items need to be re-balanced and brought into line with one another more evenly. I don't mean RS3 levels on sterilization regarding weapon damage, but some builds have run miles ahead of the others in terms of clear speed, and single target DPS. This renders many legitimate, intended, and supported play-styles/skills competitively obsolete.

Yeah and what would that accomplish? The same people like myself are still going to do it flawlessly you on the other hand and everyone else will likely still struggle.