Feedback and Suggestions (Path of Exile 1) - Chris Wilson defends instant logout with all the wrong excuses - Forum

In Zizaran's recent interview with Chris, the topic of instant logouts came up. Apart from confirming that he uses instant logout (no surprise there), Chris' reasons against a logout timer were: - It would involve too much rebalancing - People might quit - It would be like trying to play when there are random power outages happening, causing you to lose character unfairly So let's just go through why each of those reasons are invalid: It would involve too much balancing I'm not going to dispute that rebalancing the game around a defense+sustain meta instead of the current glass cannon oneshot meta would be a big job. That said, here is a thread discussing all the problems that the presence of instant logout causes: Instant logout is ruining every part of this game Those issues are worth fixing, if you ask me. It would massively improve build diversity and player engagement. And the cost of fixing them is only going to get bigger the more content you push into the game, so it's better done sooner than later. People might quit the game You could say that to shirk any kind of change. Incidentally, it didn't stop you from massively nerfing ES or VP at the height of their popularity. Make a good game, and people will play it. Instant logouts make the game worse, and if the above thread is any indication, there isn't even a lot of disagreement on that point in the community. It would be like trying to play when there are random power outages happening, causing you to lose character unfairly This one's invalid for multiple reasons, actually. First, people are already losing characters unfairly to DCs on a regular basis, precisely because monster damage is balanced around instant logouts, and DCs are not instant. Adding a logout timer and rebalancing the game accordingly would only level that playing field: it doesn't matter if you logged or DC'd, you only die if you were in over your head. Second, this is missing the bigger picture. The entire point of non-instant logout would be so that if you get in trouble, the best response is not to log out, but to actually engage with the game's mechanics: use a movement skill, portal out, pop a flask or Vaal skill you've been saving, etc. You know, do something that takes actual skill and an understanding of the game, instead of just pressing a "get out of trouble free" button. For further reading, please refer to this post from the above thread: Spoiler " suszterpatt a écrit : [ In response to https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/536962/filter-account-type/staff/page/1 ] " Chris a écrit : We want our fights to have large swings of damage and to cause a rush of adrenaline in the player. Getting oneshot is not an adrenaline rush. Neither is nearly getting oneshot, and pressing a button to instantly teleport to safety. Adrenaline rushes come from things that last for more than a second. You're doing the horror game equivalent of throwing jump scares at players without any pacing or tension building. It's cheap, and it gets old fast. " Chris a écrit : If the game didn't allow you to drop instantly then we'd have to dumb down the fights so much. We've tried it. I don't see how fights could get any dumber than the current "facetank, facetank, dodge oneshot, repeat" pattern. Keep trying, cause other games somehow know how to make better bossfights. " Chris a écrit : In addition, it means that we're able to make hard boss fights that players can attrition if they choose to. If we had to design the act bosses so that players needed to kill them in one go without dying then they would be pushovers. This is simply not true. A boss can be difficult and still possible to defeat in one go, if you make the fight about strategy and resource management instead of who has the bigger numbers. Atziri and Dominus are great examples of this. Also, "instant logout all the time" and "kill the boss in one go" are not the only two options. Portals, think with them. " Chris a écrit : We have said this multiple times on the forum and in interviews before (as well as implementing the game to be that way) - our stance shouldn't be a surprise! And by the looks of it, every time you did, players called out how absurd it is. " Chris a écrit : It's not that we're actively attempting to make fights where we want people to alt-f4, it's that when faced with the choice of: Disable it and put a timer on exit Allow it, which means we have to be able to justify it We vastly prefer the second option because it leads to fights that are honestly a whole lot more fun (for us, at least). Is alt-f4 more fun than portalling out? Or is it just easier and more effective? " Qarl a écrit : And no, we don't specifically plan for quitting out as part of a boss fight. " Qarl a écrit : Of course we balance knowing players will Alt-F4 out of there. I'll just leave that to simmer for a while... Moving on. " Chris a écrit : I played hardcore d2 for many years. I pressed alt-F4 once every few days on average. I cannot imagine an Action RPG design where it's blocked. We discussed this heavily when designing PoE. I'd love to find a solution (because I agree it's bad in principle), but being able to "Nope" out of situations drastically changes a lot about the game. You already have a solution. It's called portalling out. Problem solved, can we get rid of instant logouts now? " Chris a écrit : It should be noted that the guys who actually do the balance (Carl, Rory, Mark2) don't necessarily play the same way I do. It's just that when the founders were deciding whether we should allow instant exit, we decided for it because we think it leads to a better game. Well, with a few years of hindsight, I think we can all agree that it didn't lead to a better game. When most of the defensive features you designed are next to useless compared to stacking nothing but life and DPS, you done goofed. But please Chris, if you're reading this, feel free to chime in with some up-to-date opinions. I'd love to hear them. Dernier bump le 20 janv. 2018 à 07:49:42 Ce fil de discussion a été automatiquement archivé. Les réponses ont été désactivées.	Posté par suszterpatt#5078 le 14 janv. 2018 à 16:57:11 Citer ce post
100% agree with Chris. There is no way to add a logout timer that would not apply to all kinds of exits, that means when there is a power outage, lag spike, game freeze etc. you would be ADDING a timer to all of those as well. No thanks!!	Posté par Zee#5446 le 14 janv. 2018 à 18:10:10 Citer ce post
" Zee a écrit : 100% agree with Chris. There is no way to add a logout timer that would not apply to all kinds of exits, that means when there is a power outage, lag spike, game freeze etc. you would be ADDING a timer to all of those as well. No thanks!! There already is a timer on those. It's 6 seconds. Meaning that currently, you're more at threat of dying to a DC than to a manual logout. Dernière édition par suszterpatt#5078, le 14 janv. 2018 à 18:20:03	Posté par suszterpatt#5078 le 14 janv. 2018 à 18:18:55 Citer ce post
" Zee a écrit : 100% agree with Chris. I don't understant why people protect bad things. " Zee a écrit : There is no way to add a logout timer that would not apply to all kinds of exits, that means when there is a power outage, lag spike, game freeze etc. you would be ADDING a timer to all of those as well. No thanks!! If instant logout gone - they must do a massive rebalance. With that rebalance you actually not being killed in a half second from nowhere. Also game actually will evolved from 'build-based' to 'skill-based'. Right now this type of evolving is impossible in all case. Game can't do that when to survive with eva build and a lot of movement skills to manually evade attacks you still need 6k HP, because random enemy can one shot you. And to avoid danger you don't think how to do that - just press the button and you are safe now. Also from league to league a game generate more and more danger exactly because you can instant logout. Game must kill you characters to be challenging. E = mc^(OMG)/wtf	Posté par DoEFotGS#0015 le 14 janv. 2018 à 19:17:56 Citer ce post
Instant-logout is a popular target for demonizing, but it is not the end of the line if you are trying to distill the argument down to exactly where and why Chris disagrees with so many of the game's fans on this question. At risk of oversimplification, I will typify video game players into two categories: 1) Your goal is to have fun for its own sake. You enjoy playing the game on its own terms. You don't typically exploit developer oversights or bugs to get ahead, and anything you perceive as "cheating" drastically reduces the game's fun for you. A large subset of serious gamers fit into this category, as do almost all casual gamers (who generally have neither the time nor desire to dig up meta exploits). 2) Your goal is to win, and you are willing to tolerate unfun mechanics to help meet that goal. You enjoy exploiting knowledge obtained from outside the game in order to make it easier for you, and you don't mind engaging the game on terms not intended by the designers. In some of the first FPSs you ran diagonally in order to get that speed bonus. In later FPSs, you bunny-hopped across the map. In D2 you researched breakpoints for increased attack speed, cast speed, and hit recovery, and tweaked your gear accordingly. You also used maphack to maximize boss kills per hour. In PoE you search out the latest meta (or copy others who already have), watch(ed) poelab regularly for profitable lab runs, and don't mind using logout scripts and/or Alt+F4 to cheat death. You ran shaped Strand maps over and over even though you found it boring, you care about things like maps cleared per hour, and you are not bothered by a lack of build diversity, because all those crap builds out there make it easier for you to rise above the scrubs who don't know better. (Obviously there is some overlap, and players might fit on a spectrum somewhere between the two extremes, but bear with me here.) Both categories of players have fun engaging their respective challenge, but these are two fundamentally different kinds of challenges. Game designers typically create a game to serve players in Category 1, and then players in Category 2 take that game apart to whatever extent they can. In this case however, we have a game designer who not only belongs to Category 2 but is also actively trying to serve players in that category. Right there, ladies and gentlemen, is the problem distilled to its essence. My suggestion? I would like Chris to reexamine his approach to game design by recognizing that metas rise of their own accord and do not need to be created deliberately. Designing exploits into your game (whether actively, via the creation of skills which are vastly more powerful than 95% of other skills, or passively, by ignoring longstanding exploits such as Alt+F4 or problems such as ineffective defensive mechanics) is leaving Category 1 players in the dust and destroying their fun on so many levels. Conversely, designing your game for Category 1 players will not destroy the fun of Category 2 players, because you are not perfect, and exploitation of meta-knowledge will always be a part of the game. Players in Category 1 are being driven further and further from the game with every patch, because of the above. There is a reason you haven't seen me around the forums lately, and that's it right there. This is a waste, because you can serve both categories. Wash your hands, Exile! Dernière édition par gibbousmoon#4656, le 14 janv. 2018 à 23:04:41	Posté par gibbousmoon#4656 le 14 janv. 2018 à 20:21:58 Citer ce post
+1 to the post just above mine. I would also consider myself a category 1 player, I don't want to compete. Remove Horticrafting station storage limit.	Posté par Char1983#2680 le 14 janv. 2018 à 20:38:47 Citer ce post
" gibbousmoon a écrit : Instant-logout is a popular target for demonizing, but it is not the end of the line if you are trying to distill the argument down to exactly where and why Chris disagrees with so many of the game's fans on this question. At risk of oversimplification, I will typify video game players into two categories: 1) Your goal is to have fun. You enjoy playing the game on its own terms. You don't typically exploit developer oversights or bugs to get ahead, and anything you perceive as "cheating" drastically reduces the game's fun for you. A large subset of serious gamers fit into this category, as do almost all casual gamers (who generally have neither the time nor desire to dig up meta exploits). 2) Your goal is to win, and you are willing to tolerate unfun mechanics to help meet that goal. You enjoy exploiting knowledge obtained from outside the game in order to make it easier for you, and you don't mind engaging the game on terms not intended by the designers. In some of the first FPSs you ran diagonally in order to get that speed bonus. In later FPSs, you bunny-hopped across the map. In D2 you researched breakpoints for increased attack speed, cast speed, and hit recovery, and tweaked your gear accordingly. You also used maphack to maximize boss kills per hour. In PoE you search out the latest meta (or copy others who already have), watch(ed) poelab regularly for profitable lab runs, and don't mind using logout scripts and/or Alt+F4 to cheat death. You care about things like maps cleared per hour, and are not bothered by a lack of build diversity, because all those crap builds out there make it easier for you to rise above the scrubs who don't know better. (Obviously there is some overlap, and players might fit on a spectrum somewhere between the two extremes, but bear with me here.) Both categories of players seek a challenge, but these are two fundamentally different kinds of challenges. Game designers typically create a game to serve players in Category 1, and then players in Category 2 take that game apart to whatever extent they can. In this case however, we have a game designer who not only belongs to Category 2 but is also actively trying to serve players in that category. Right there, ladies and gentlemen, is the problem distilled to its essence. My suggestion? I would like Chris to reexamine his approach to game design by recognizing that metas rise of their own accord and do not need to be created deliberately. Designing exploits into your game (whether actively, via the creation of skills which are vastly more powerful than 95% of other skills, or passively, by ignoring longstanding exploits such as Alt+F4 or problems such as ineffective defensive mechanics) is leaving Category 1 players in the dust and destroying their fun on so many levels. Conversely, designing your game for Category 1 players will not destroy the fun of Category 2 players, because you are not perfect, and exploitation of meta-knowledge will always be a part of the game. Players in Category 1 are being driven further and further from the game with every patch, because of the above. This is a waste, because you can serve both categories. I can agree with this to 100%. I consider myself to be a rather pure type 1 player (I know, I know, filthy casual and such), but as you said, it gets harder and harder. I have fun with absolutely weird stuff (my best example being a combination of doryani's fist with dancing dervish - worked decently well and was a ton of fun), but every patch either makes it harder to pull such things off because I get oneshotted randomly by a normal monster out of nowhere, or because the meta forcefully gets shifted into a direction where it is close to impossible for me to even get the gear for crazy builds. You want to try to create a max block bow scion? Bad news, lioneye's fall is worth more than my average build. I know this is not only GGG's fault, but I think changing the game back into the direction of the much slower one it used to be would be a good thing. -Sincerely, a player who refuses to give up on poison even after it got nerfed SO HARD that you no longer a reason to build around it. I make dumb builds, therefore I am.	Posté par FCK42#0688 le 14 janv. 2018 à 20:41:24 Citer ce post
If they left something clear in that interview is that they don't give a f*** about their own forums. He mentioned reddit serveral times, never this one. So i think you ended up posting in the wrong place. "In this game you're just a cow being milked, not a human being entertained" - Kiss_Me_Quick	Posté par IIPheXII#5639 le 15 janv. 2018 à 00:58:16 Citer ce post
" gibbousmoon a écrit : Instant-logout is a popular target for demonizing, but it is not the end of the line if you are trying to distill the argument down to exactly where and why Chris disagrees with so many of the game's fans on this question. At risk of oversimplification, I will typify video game players into two categories: 1) Your goal is to have fun for its own sake. You enjoy playing the game on its own terms. You don't typically exploit developer oversights or bugs to get ahead, and anything you perceive as "cheating" drastically reduces the game's fun for you. A large subset of serious gamers fit into this category, as do almost all casual gamers (who generally have neither the time nor desire to dig up meta exploits). 2) Your goal is to win, and you are willing to tolerate unfun mechanics to help meet that goal. You enjoy exploiting knowledge obtained from outside the game in order to make it easier for you, and you don't mind engaging the game on terms not intended by the designers. In some of the first FPSs you ran diagonally in order to get that speed bonus. In later FPSs, you bunny-hopped across the map. In D2 you researched breakpoints for increased attack speed, cast speed, and hit recovery, and tweaked your gear accordingly. You also used maphack to maximize boss kills per hour. In PoE you search out the latest meta (or copy others who already have), watch(ed) poelab regularly for profitable lab runs, and don't mind using logout scripts and/or Alt+F4 to cheat death. You ran shaped Strand maps over and over even though you found it boring, you care about things like maps cleared per hour, and you are not bothered by a lack of build diversity, because all those crap builds out there make it easier for you to rise above the scrubs who don't know better. (Obviously there is some overlap, and players might fit on a spectrum somewhere between the two extremes, but bear with me here.) Both categories of players have fun engaging their respective challenge, but these are two fundamentally different kinds of challenges. Game designers typically create a game to serve players in Category 1, and then players in Category 2 take that game apart to whatever extent they can. In this case however, we have a game designer who not only belongs to Category 2 but is also actively trying to serve players in that category. Right there, ladies and gentlemen, is the problem distilled to its essence. My suggestion? I would like Chris to reexamine his approach to game design by recognizing that metas rise of their own accord and do not need to be created deliberately. Designing exploits into your game (whether actively, via the creation of skills which are vastly more powerful than 95% of other skills, or passively, by ignoring longstanding exploits such as Alt+F4 or problems such as ineffective defensive mechanics) is leaving Category 1 players in the dust and destroying their fun on so many levels. Conversely, designing your game for Category 1 players will not destroy the fun of Category 2 players, because you are not perfect, and exploitation of meta-knowledge will always be a part of the game. Players in Category 1 are being driven further and further from the game with every patch, because of the above. There is a reason you haven't seen me around the forums lately, and that's it right there. This is a waste, because you can serve both categories. One of the best posts that I have read in long while, regarding why PoE "feels" so underwhelming... Well put @gibbousmoon, very well put. Now post this on Reddit and see if GGG or Chris specifically can "muster a satisfying" answer... PSS: Our almighty TencentGGG overlords are very scrupulous regarding criticizing their abilities to take proper decisions and consider everything "needlessly harsh and condescending"... Good to know "free speech" doesn't apply in any form or manner on the forums these days...	Posté par sofocle10000#6408 le 15 janv. 2018 à 01:13:02 Citer ce post
I think its fine, I dont think the damage levels are that bad. The idea that the games damage is balanced around logging out, with the implication that the damage levels are somehow unreasonable and require logging out, I dont fully buy into that. I feel like I can run hard red maps on proper builds 8 hours a day 7 days a week for a month and never log out, never die. Ive seen plenty of times hc streamers have logged out and died as a result when they would have probably survived by playing through the situation. I dunno, I just dont think its a big deal, I dont think the game has some horrible imbalance that is being forced on it by logouts, I think its pretty much fine. I dont buy into the idea the game is full of 1 shots etc, I virtually never get 1 shot, I think its just people playing glass characters that deserve to get 1 shot in 99% of cases. Its an online game, shit happens. Op hasnt got any hardcore characters, Ive played hardcore in this game, Ive played it in D3 where they had timer etc and a more slow death style balance, D3 hardcore was terrible and just full of bs internet connection deaths and the game wasnt rly that fast n fun, felt a lot more boring. Dunno why people who dont play hardcore care about hc players logging out or not tbh. Let em get on with it, its not effecting us in softcore. turning this game into a spunge v spunge yawnfest in order to balance it for hc players not being able to log out would effect us though, in a bad way. I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :)	Posté par Snorkle_uk#0761 le 15 janv. 2018 à 02:48:52 Citer ce post