The wall of real problems that prevent PoE from being a god-tier game

"

KenshiD a écrit :

And what is the problem with attracting gamblers and people who [...] etc?

What is the point you are making.

>Oh no a game is attracting a crowd with a different mentality than I have. This is an outrage!!!

I'm not sure if you've noticed but no one is necessarily attracted by the gambling in this game. This is advertised as a harcore ARPG, not a hardcore gambling simulator. People begin playing this game without knowing about any of the randomness, they enjoy it, then after hundreds of hours they realize the game is laden with RNG and the only way you'll make progress is if you get lucky. If a casual player tries out the game it's either because they read a superficial review since reviewers never play enough to see RNG, or because it's a F2P title.

The reason a lot of people stick around is because they've spent money on this game and as such are more invested than players who haven't. Everybody else just jumps ship, but even the people who've spent money end up leaving.

The worst about all this is that the criticisms are legitimate, they're well-articulated and they're not really knee-jerk reactions, since most of us who are condemned to the Feedback forum by the mods have put in a good amount of time in this game.

Meanwhile, GGG has stopped posting on the forums and interacting with the community, NEVER addressing anything that regards balance, and no one has a fucking clue what the immediate or long-term goals or plans are, if they agree with us to a degree, or if they would prefer for us to fuck off and stop acting like they owe us anything.

Game is just not in a good place right now.

The important thing is to see the role of gambling in the game.

Let's say we five-link 100 items over our time here, we'll sometimes do it with 5 fusing orbs and sometimes we'll do it with 150, but the longer we play the closer we are to 60 fusing orbs which is a 5-link average.

60 orbs is how much we used on each of those link attempts in the end, that's how much orbs we sunk, that's how much we eventually traded for, that's how much wealth we lost to do it.

So, what's the difference from having a recipe which requires 60 orbs to do it?
From the aspect of economy - nothing.
From the aspect of game difficulty - nothing.
From the aspect of currency sink - nothing.
From the aspect of gear acquirement curve - again nothing.

So what's the point if it has no influence over core game experience?
It's the personal enjoyment factor.

If you get more annoyed when you spend 150 fusings to do it than you get overjoyed when you do it with five - you're an average Joe, that's the normal reaction to it, that's why bread always seems to land on the wrong side, basic psychology.

But if you get gargantuan doses of endorphin when you do luck out and unlucky streaks get drowned in adrenaline - you're a gambler.

So what is wrong here is assuming most people are gamblers in spirit, if there's virtually no effect on the game except that personal factor why not provide the other option too? Because that's not the way you like it? That's just plain stubborn, and as long as you run a business you can't afford to be stubborn.

"

tinko92 a écrit :

"

KenshiD a écrit :

And what is the problem with attracting gamblers and people who [...] etc?

What is the point you are making.

>Oh no a game is attracting a crowd with a different mentality than I have. This is an outrage!!!

Depends, extremities are making game enjoyable by only people who [...] etc.
I do believe that a middle ground can be achieved, so that the game can attract those who like gambling and those who don't. Extremities are a bad thing, undoubtedly, and that also goes to D3.

It could be the next best thing, but... GGG made the game they themselves want to play, then by all means there's no real problem at all.
They wanted to pioneer in this genre with that enormous amount of randomness and gambling, they've did it, and that makes them successful.

However, D2 successor still remains to be seen.


And again, don't take this on a individual level, I repeat, this is not about me, I'm not talking about myself. I'm bringing other sides of the story, which you may claim to be just my opinions, but we all know it isn't and that a lot of people feel the same. When it comes to these 2 exact point, a huge majority feels the same, again, this is not something I can prove, but it can be seen throughout the forum and only a blind or ignorant man would claim otherwise.

Well I must say this was most likely the most sensible post I've read so far from you since I read the first on this forum.

I mean it's not like I couldn't agree with what you say. I just point out that there are things people might not like, and GGG has to decide when the point is where their ideas just don't go along with the taste of their player base.

I think Invasion is one of those instances.
The RNG was always a part of PoE, not really something new, so for me as someone who plays the game for about 2 years now I've never really seen it a problem.

Also I personally find other aspects of the game right now much more problematic than basically a core design decision.

There are basically just 2 options right now, live with it or don't play the game. In the end whatever makes the game successful in the eyes of GGG will decide the path they take.

"

raics a écrit :

The important thing is to see the role of gambling in the game.

Let's say we five-link 100 items over our time here, we'll sometimes do it with 5 fusing orbs and sometimes we'll do it with 150, but the longer we play the closer we are to 60 fusing orbs which is a 5-link average.

60 orbs is how much we used on each of those link attempts in the end, that's how much orbs we sunk, that's how much we eventually traded for, that's how much wealth we lost to do it.

So, what's the difference from having a recipe which requires 60 orbs to do it?
From the aspect of economy - nothing.
From the aspect of game difficulty - nothing.
From the aspect of currency sink - nothing.
From the aspect of gear acquirement curve - again nothing.

So what's the point if it has no influence over core game experience?
It's the personal enjoyment factor.

If you get more annoyed when you spend 150 fusings to do it than you get overjoyed when you do it with five - you're an average Joe, that's the normal reaction to it, that's why bread always seems to land on the wrong side, basic psychology.

But if you get gargantuan doses of endorphin when you do luck out and unlucky streaks get drowned in adrenaline - you're a gambler.

So what is wrong here is assuming most people are gamblers in spirit, if there's virtually no effect on the game except that personal factor why not provide the other option too? Because that's not the way you like it? That's just plain stubborn, and as long as you run a business you can't afford to be stubborn.

When it comes to things like making a 6L. I think another options would be if there was some kind of endgame quest which will as a reward link all your sockets on an item.

Each player has maybe just one of those quests but at least it would guarantee a 6L for each player when reaching the endgame and completing a hard quest.

It still would have the option of fusing you other gear (maybe only for 3 and 4 links since those are easy to get)

"

tinko92 a écrit :

It's even more hilarious if you think that people like gambling in this genre, especially on almost every thing.
You can act all blind and delusional if you want, of course.

yet here you are again ! you dont even notice it, do you ?
you just called me blind and delusional because....I like RNG and have an opinion different from yours.
basically youre trying to say my opinion is wrong and Im a degenerate gambler (youre not quite saying it, but implying it) because it deviates from majority and goes against your opinion, which you hold like the ultimate truth

"

I cannot prove it, nobody can, but if one keeps up with the forum for some time, like I've did, I've never seen anyone saying the gambling (crafting) is fine and that the gated content is also fine, except for some people with multiple supporter titles.

its funny how you like to call people on lies (other threads) so let me catch you here really quick

now let's see here. do I have supporter titles ? *checks* nope. never had. do I say RNG is fine ? yep. do I think gated content is fine ? yes, I in fact made a post in summer of last year well BEFORE maps were all changed to maze/large, saying that map system is fine as it is, dont change a thing.

congrats, sir, I just caught you LYING.

"

Spoken in obvious negative connotation? First of all, I was one of the gamblers for many months. What was the obvious part again?

but now your blind has been dispelled and now you are everywhere telling us what is good and what is bad for a game ? spare us the dramatics, bruh.

"

That much RNG and gambling does not fit the genre, what backs it up is that PoE is the only game in it's genre with that much gambling, in almost everything you do.

only game ? d3 vanilla says hello. except of course with everything tied to weapon damage you couldnt actually progress until you got a good weapon drop, no exceptions.

"

I don't have respect for someone's opinion? In what part did you exactly got that? Or you just decided to play with words?
And do tell what's not objective there.

again, its quite obvious. me, KenshiD and others have said that they like RNG.

you are pushing your point as if its the only real and true point, dismissing people who think otherwise as delusional, blind, degenerate gamblers or blind supporters.

this is what KenshiD has been asking you multiple times in this thread, but you fail to understand his question. because you dont seem to comprehend that some people may indeed LIKE the RNG without being blind, delusional, gambler addicts or GGG fanboys. you cannot seem to imagine that because you seem to feel like your point is absolute truth.

you have to have some underlying reason why people think in a way different from yours

"

raics a écrit :

The important thing is to see the role of gambling in the game.

Let's say we five-link 100 items over our time here, we'll sometimes do it with 5 fusing orbs and sometimes we'll do it with 150, but the longer we play the closer we are to 60 fusing orbs which is a 5-link average.

60 orbs is how much we used on each of those link attempts in the end, that's how much orbs we sunk, that's how much we eventually traded for, that's how much wealth we lost to do it.

So, what's the difference from having a recipe which requires 60 orbs to do it?
From the aspect of economy - nothing.
From the aspect of game difficulty - nothing.
From the aspect of currency sink - nothing.
From the aspect of gear acquirement curve - again nothing.

So what's the point if it has no influence over core game experience?
It's the personal enjoyment factor.

If you get more annoyed when you spend 150 fusings to do it than you get overjoyed when you do it with five - you're an average Joe, that's the normal reaction to it, that's why bread always seems to land on the wrong side, basic psychology.

But if you get gargantuan doses of endorphin when you do luck out and unlucky streaks get drowned in adrenaline - you're a gambler.

So what is wrong here is assuming most people are gamblers in spirit, if there's virtually no effect on the game except that personal factor why not provide the other option too? Because that's not the way you like it? That's just plain stubborn, and as long as you run a business you can't afford to be stubborn.

Last I've checked, avg is 100. I am completely in favor of adding a recipe. But the recipe should be higher than the average, since you're eliminating risk. The recipe for a 5L should be around 150

"

grepman a écrit :

yet here you are again ! you dont even notice it, do you ?
you just called me blind and delusional because....I like RNG and have an opinion different from yours.
basically youre trying to say my opinion is wrong and Im a degenerate gambler (youre not quite saying it, but implying it) because it deviates from majority and goes against your opinion, which you hold like the ultimate truth

What exactly don't I notice?
No, I'm calling you blind and delusional if you think that huge majority of players don't like gambling (crafting) and gated content.
I'm not saying your opinion is wrong and I've never implied that you're (or anyone else) a "degenerate gambler", don't put words into my mouth. That's just in your head because you're taking this on a personal level.

It's not that I hold it as the ultimate truth, that is how it is, I know you can see it, and I've also said why that may be.

"

its funny how you like to call people on lies (other threads) so let me catch you here really quick

now let's see here. do I have supporter titles ? *checks* nope. never had. do I say RNG is fine ? yep. do I think gated content is fine ? yes, I in fact made a post in summer of last year well BEFORE maps were all changed to maze/large, saying that map system is fine as it is, dont change a thing.

congrats, sir, I just caught you LYING.

I stand corrected, what I meant to say was that most of those who say that gambling (crafting) and gated content are fine are people with multiple supporter titles.
I've been discussing almost the same thing on two threads, so this slipped away somehow.

"

but now your blind has been dispelled and now you are everywhere telling us what is good and what is bad for a game ? spare us the dramatics, bruh.

Really, when exactly did I say what's good or bad for the game? Do quote please. That's just what you want to read from my posts.

I wasn't blind then, I was aware, but I was heated for the game, so I "had" to put up with it.
And yeah, one more time, what was the obvious part? Why aren't you backing up your claims?

Dramatics? What's dramatic here? Do you even know what does that mean?

And no, you spare me your internet slang. I can't take someone serious with that.

"

only game ? d3 vanilla says hello. except of course with everything tied to weapon damage you couldnt actually progress until you got a good weapon drop, no exceptions.

Yes, the only game, or you know another one?
What exactly is vanilla in D3? And no, if you're saying that D3 is another game that has the amount of gambling and the gated content like PoE, you are so much wrong that you're even embarrassing yourself.
What does that have to do with what I've said anyway? You like to polish your hardcore gamer ego with that?

"

again, its quite obvious. me, KenshiD and others have said that they like RNG.

you are pushing your point as if its the only real and true point, dismissing people who think otherwise as delusional, blind, degenerate gamblers or blind supporters.

this is what KenshiD has been asking you multiple times in this thread, but you fail to understand his question. because you dont seem to comprehend that some people may indeed LIKE the RNG without being blind, delusional, gambler addicts or GGG fanboys. you cannot seem to imagine that because you seem to feel like your point is absolute truth.

you have to have some underlying reason why people think in a way different from yours

Again I ask, what is the obvious part in that too?
I've never said that you, KenshiD and others don't like RNG, but thanks for the info.

What exactly has he been asking me multiple times? I don't see any question there what you've wrote, I see a claim, a statement.

Of course some part of players like that much randomness and gambling, obviously GGG themselves like it, obviously casino's exist all over the place, people like that. The thing that I'm saying here is, that the ratio of people who don't like that extreme amount of gambling and those who do is incredibly in the favor of those who don't, logically.
And please don't ask me why is that logical...

I've also said people with gambling tendencies, those aren't gambling addicts. And yes, when we account all of that up, please tell me what kind of people would enjoy this extreme amount of gambling other than that group of people?

The last statement... I cannot comprehend it, I've tried, but I can't.

Actually, D3 is still gambling. You can replace a mod with a random mod. You can craft rares, same as using an alch. You can craft legendaries, with random stats of course.

"

What exactly don't I notice?
No, I'm calling you blind and delusional if you think that huge majority of players don't like gambling (crafting) and gated content.
I'm not saying your opinion is wrong and I've never implied that you're (or anyone else) a "degenerate gambler", don't put words into my mouth. That's just in your head because you're taking this on a personal level.

you're speaking like you are representing majority, citing yourself reading the forums.
when asked to be proved you claim it cannot be proven but its a well known fact. fair enough on other points.

"

It's not that I hold it as the ultimate truth, that is how it is

LOL
so to paraphrase, its not that you hold it as the truth, it is the truth. no man thats like, your opinion.

"

I stand corrected, what I meant to say was that most of those who say that gambling (crafting) and gated content are fine are people with multiple supporter titles.
I've been discussing almost the same thing on two threads, so this slipped away somehow.

great (and I mean it, no funny business), I didnt expect that youd admit it but I guess I underestimated you.

"

Really, when exactly did I say what's good or bad for the game? Do quote please. That's just what you want to read from my posts.

maybe. you saying majority hates rng and gated content -> therefore rng and gated content are bad for the game. if I misunderstood, I beg pardon.

"

And no, you spare me your internet slang. I can't take someone serious with that.

internet slang ? we say bruh all the time in california, bruh.

"

What exactly is vanilla in D3?

huh ? vanilla is a common term for the original, pre-patch, pre-expansion titles. look up wow vanilla or d2 vanilla.

"

And no, if you're saying that D3 is another game that has the amount of gambling and the gated content like PoE, you are so much wrong that you're even embarrassing yourself.
What does that have to do with what I've said anyway? You like to polish your hardcore gamer ego with that?

D3 (pre-nerfs) didnt have gated content in poes sense, Ill give you that. what it did have is its x getting close to infinity in the 'invest x time to progress' without using AH
D3 may have never had the degree of RNG that PoE has, but its quite close, just off initial drops because it didnt have anything going besides that. crafting wasnt for endgame at all besides gems.

oh and I dont have a hardcore gamer ego. Im a casual gamer actually. plus I play on standard most of the time :p

"

Again I ask, what is the obvious part in that too?

its obvious that you consider your opinion the 'right one'

"

What exactly has he been asking me multiple times? I don't see any question there what you've wrote, I see a claim, a statement.

he has been asking whats wrong with game companies designing a game centered around RNG, and attracting the people who like RNG. its right there in his posts, lol.

"

Of course some part of players like that much randomness and gambling, obviously GGG themselves like it, obviously casino's exist all over the place, people like that. The thing that I'm saying here is, that the ratio of people who don't like that extreme amount of gambling and those who do is incredibly in the favor of those who don't, logically.
And please don't ask me why is that logical...

I dont need to ask- I know the answer. it's logical to you because your opinion is backed up by majority so its the 'right' opinion to you. its ok, I understand, tastes differ.

the problem is that you think your opinion is something bigger than your opinion because you're in the majority, so you have the audacity to speak for people besides yourself.

"

I've also said people with gambling tendencies, those aren't gambling addicts. And yes, when we account all of that up, please tell me what kind of people would enjoy this extreme amount of gambling other than that group of people?

well, unlike you I dont speak for a group of people, so Ill just speak for myself.
I dont enjoy RNG because of gambling tendencies. I enjoy rng in minesweeper, and it has nothing to do with gambling. I enjoy RNG because it provides me with non-linear progression and doesnt remind me of doing a job. I enjoy RNG because I like the process in this game more than the end goal and having a guaranteed end goal is stale in aRPG endgames, imo.

It cannot be proven, anyone can come to that conclusion by reading the forum.
And since I cannot prove that, and you're acting blind to that, it's pointless to even mention this ever again with you.

It's not my opinion, it's the opinion of the majority, and that's a huge majority.

No, that doesn't mean I'm saying what's good or bad for the game, because I don't know what the game is supposed to be like in the end.
I can only say what's good or bad for the huge majority of the players, and that, like I've said, can easily be seen on the forum. We're not from yesterday, enough of the crap...

So why would you compare a pre-patch D3 and the current PoE?
No game in this genre, or any other genre beside gambling/casino games, has this amount of randomness and gambling.
D3 is nowhere even close to PoE regarding that, and it never was.

By that ego, I meant that you feel hardcore for playing PoE instead of D3 or TL2, it's quite common thesedays.

Yes, and I've responded to that.

So, you see... you're wrong.
And why that was logical, I'll take a shot now. The reasons why casino's are overall very rare places is because only a very small part of population enjoys it. And, a good part of people who go to casino's don't even enjoy it, they're trying to earn some "easy" money.
Of course I don't speak for myself only, why would I? The situation is clear, huge majority of players do not like this extreme amount of randomness and gambling. I'm repeating myself...

Well, I'll tell you that Minesweeper is millions of miles away from PoE regarding randomness and gambling. It's 95%+ simple math and logic.
So, you're saying that a much less gambling in crafting would decimate the non-linear progression for you? As well as non-gated (behind RNG) content? How would a content gated behind difficulty be a bad thing in a game of this genre? I mean, there is a reason why PoE is the only game that has this.
I never said anything about guaranteed X.