Fixing the Aura Stacking + Pumping Single Skill Problem

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deteego a écrit :

Yeah, except the thing with that is, curses are not active skills.

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deteego a écrit :

That isn't any different to what is happening now, so its not solving the problem at all

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Sonto a écrit :

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

If the problem is "players spam the exact same skill over and over," then it fixes the problem at least somewhat -- you need to start spamming a different skill when you come up against an immunity.

I definitely think we need to make some damage types much better against certain monster types, to reward players for having a diverse skill set. These differences would start out minor in Normal, and become somewhat drastic by Merciless.

For example, let's say a Merveil's Daughter had 75% cold resistance, -20% fire resistance, and 40% in chaos and lightning. A witch whose primary skill is Freezing Pulse encounters one. If they've developed Fireball as a secondary attack, it's hard to imagine a situation where switching to Fireball wouldn't be the right call; it's hard to spec cold so hard that 300% more Fire damage is the wrong move.

That's kind of what you want. And actually, I think I like it too. It means using different skills for different monsters is rewarded, although not necessarily required.

But then you say, what about Cold Penetration? Wouldn't the FP witch just use that, and ignore the Fire switch? Good point. So let's increase all those resistances by 20. 95% cold resistance, 0 fire resistance, 60 chaos/lightning resistance.

(If you said, what about Frostbite and Elemental Weakness? Well, if the witch is using those, they're not just mindless spamming the same skill, are they? It's now this one-two-punch combo thing. And that's okay.)

Note that 95% is pretty darn close to immunity, yet there's definitely tools to break that resistance down.

What I'd like to see in Merciless onward is:
* no white monster types with immunities, but one strong elemental resistance each
* each white monster type has a strong elemental weakness
* occasional immunities on blue/rare monsters, when the natural resistance and a resistance mod happen to line up... but this should never be so powerful that one avaialable penetration effect can't get resistance below 100%.

In any case, immunities are a better idea than adding cooldowns. Both stop you from spamming your skills as often as you might like. However, with high resistances -- functionally never immunities, since people would use penetrates to bypass them -- you'd be reacting to what's on you're fighting, learning your monster types, and dealing with an actual situation. Advanced situations with varied monster composition would come up. With cooldowns, the only thing you're reacting to is a faded clock graphic over the icon of your bomb skill.

This is a great idea, actually. It keeps players on their toes and to be wary of the enemies they are facing. Either they need to switch abilities or apply a debuff, which is much more in the spirit of an action game rather than 'spamspamspam'.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

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deteego a écrit :

Yeah, except the thing with that is, curses are not active skills.

Yes, they are.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

* You are trying to force people into acting a certain way. Cooldowns get established, the skill is offline for however many seconds.
* I am trying to persuade people into acting a certain way. You can still whittle away at that monster with your main skill, but you might want to try something else, it would work better.

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deteego a écrit :

The difference is, my solution fixes the problem, yours doesn't. And if people don't want cooldowns on skills, then they can use a cooldown reduction gem. That kind of logic is retarded, its like claiming that FP is a stupid design because it forces people to not use chain on it (since its piercing). Me forcing a playstyle would be putting CD on every skill, thats not what I am doing

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deteego a écrit :

All immunities do is make you spam the skill more often on a single mob as you try and wear it down, it doesn't fix the issue at all, it hasn't fixed the issue in any aRPG to date, in fact its been removed from aRPGs for a good reason, its a shitty idea

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deteego a écrit :

Immunities wouldn't even do anything against skills like LA which due to elemental damage pumping and auras, deal mixed damage

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

The core difference between my suggest and yours is:
* You are trying to force people into acting a certain way. Cooldowns get established, the skill is offline for however many seconds.
* I am trying to persuade people into acting a certain way. You can still whittle away at that monster with your main skill, but you might want to try something else, it would work better.

My suggestion would make skill alternation the best strategy, but not the only strategy. Yours would make it enforced completely. But both would get people alternating skills. How that isn't "solving the problem" doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps you're just overly attached to your own ideas (I know I sure am sometimes).

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artemis42 a écrit :

I agree that immunities are a lazy designer's 'solution'. This game needs CC as a requirement for higher level play: kiting, stun-locking, active defenses against strong attacks (immortal call style), etc., instead of the totem faceroll it is now.

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PolarisOrbit a écrit :

Immunities (or strong resistances, though I will collectively refer to both as "immunities" for brevity's sake) are not really comparable to cooldowns. The advantages and disadvantages are completely different.
1. Immunities may force you to use different skills against different packs, but against a particular pack there is no reason why you wouldn't just continue spamming the strongest skill for that particular immunity. Using different skills against different packs is static diversity (determined by what the game did); using different skills against the same packs is dynamic diversity (determined by what the player did). There is a place for both kinds of diversity. The point is using either one by itself only achieves half of that diversity.
2. Immunities punish solo more than parties. Solo is already at a disadvantage in POE. Cooldowns do not care about party size.
3. Immunities are more difficult to communicate to players than are cooldowns. This applies even moreso to strong resistances.
4. Cooldowns can give you a period of weakness. This gives battles more ebb and flow because your character gains and loses offensive strength.
5. Immunities ensure that no one skillset can dominate everything in the game. Cooldowns do not make any guarantee about this.

The point is immunities and cooldowns do not achieve the same goal. Whatever superficial similarities they provide are overwhelmed by concrete differences in their comparative disadvantages.