The defensive stats are actually pretty balanced
" Yup. Evasion alone is always going to be weaker than the other defence, because of the diminishing returns from stacking it (takes much more evasion rating to go from 40% to 50% than from 50% to 60%). However, the point is actually moot because you are never supposed to be using evasion alone. Given the way evasion scales, it is perfect for hybridization with another defence. A mainly ES or armour build can easily get a pretty good evasion percent with only modest investment into evasion. Even "pure evasion" characters are actually a hybrid of Evasion and Acrobatics Dodge. If you are going to be comparing "pure evasion" to pure armour or ES, you must also factor in Acrobatics, because comparing evasion minus acrobatics to armour or ES is just comparing apples to oranges. Once you do start comparing evasion+acrobatics (as Scrotie has done), you will see that evasion+acrobatics is close enough in effectiveness to armour and es to be a viable option as well. Alteration Orb Union Local #7 "Holding the line, on sixteen to one!" Dernière édition par VoxelSquid#1095, le 26 mars 2013 à 11:27:01
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evasion is great.. if you combine it with acrobatic and arrow dodging granted you still need life leech, life regen and life, but imo evasion work if there are more people going for it..
my armor character can't face tank merciless bosses while my evasion acrobatic char with *TerriBAD* gears can face tank without moving around just fine. still evasion is weak against caster, but the problem is that there is no life regen near ranger or shadow tree, and duelist need to go all the way to shadow area to take acrobatic. but that can be avoided by using purity 80 % resistance + phase acrobatic Dernière édition par fortispectus#0920, le 26 mars 2013 à 11:42:17
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Wow, factor in Arrow Dodging and the argument that the defenses are balanced is very compelling. Here's a chart showing effectiveness vs physical projectile attacks, which admittedly is a rather narrow slice of incoming damage, but it shows the overlap in the abilities of armour and evasion.
 So each performs very similarly against its target. Armour is of course good against all physical, not just projectiles; evasion of course is good against all projectiles, not just physical. Hybrid armour/evasion doesn't spike early, but it allows for continued growth past the normal caps. If you can really stack both armour and evasion while using Arrow Dodging and 7 endurance charges, your potential EHP against physical projectiles skyrockets...  Yes, that is over a 300x EHP multiplier. This might be useful as a specialized anti-archer tactic in PvP. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Dernière édition par ScrotieMcB#2697, le 26 mars 2013 à 12:32:07
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yea evasion combined with arrow dodging and acrobatic is more tankier than armor+ endurance charges
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"I detect sarcasm. But against projectile attacks, it actually is. It's still rather meh against melee attacks, especially compared to armour with endurance charges. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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I agree about opportunity cost of Unwavering Stance being highlighted by Blind and possibility of Arrow Dodging. Yet being able to sufficiently apply Blind is another special kind of requirement.
Thanks for new arrow dodging graphs. You could put it into the non-endurance graph while assuming one half or third of attacks are projectiles maybe. This isn't the frequency of ranged attackers but reflects their relative ease at attacking you while you're kiting melee. But then, perhaps one could argue that some of the damage should be spell-based or elemental attacks, too. The targeted forms of mitigation really start getting into build playstyle and combinations of mechanics involved though. Shame there is no comparable way to put block into the original first graph. The one that doesn't go ballistic, hehe. At most you could start comparing block passives to armor/ER ones but then block is the one with increasing returns. Endurance charges being balanced against how troublesome they are to use, and different opportunity costs (curse slot, close range casting, uniques...) depending on how they're approached, is just really odd to analyze... Dernière édition par Ksielvin#7078, le 26 mars 2013 à 14:50:23
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"Which is exactly as it should be. Life should be general mitigtion, solid against everything, with ES as a potential replacement. The defenses should be specific mitigation, targeted towards the types of attacks you want to be especially good at dealing with. They shouldn't be directly equivalent, with strengths and weaknesses for each. The graphs are not meant to show equivalency; they are meant to show that each defense is similarly strong at its particular, very different job. The only real problem now is that general mitigation (life) is a little too strong against specific mitigation, leading too many to go down a purely generalist road. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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" Oh yes, definitely. The design or balance would be bad if we could agree that something is best on absolute terms. Just recognizing the limits of the comparison and considering other measurements. I don't consider life to be mitigation at all but buffer. The life nodes are nearly everywhere so that we would choose between them and how we want to access them and the degree we use them after a reasonable amount. Not so that skipping them completely would be an option. But I think ultimately you treat life nodes the same way since you suggested a balance change between base HP and life nodes while still staying within the same design. ES is the other buffer alternative of course, and CI the only case of not using life nodes (before that new unique chest anyway). I'd actually like ES to be accessible (= get good) earlier and for a wider variety builds to mix in. The limited ways to sustain ES (or life/ES hybrids especially) causes difficulties. Devs could try having life flasks seamlessly continue recovery from life to ES pool or having specific ES flasks. But there's also a worry about making ES too good in top gear due to stronger scaling. EDIT: By the way, if evasion was made to work against spells as you speculated, it's not a given that arrow dodging would work be extended against spell projectiles. Dernière édition par Ksielvin#7078, le 26 mars 2013 à 16:48:07
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" That's true, but it doesn't really need to evade spells. You already have one truly powerful application with evasion, the near total mitigation of projectile attacks against you. A defense with a powerful application like that doesn't need to become better in a generalist sense. In essence, my reasoning behind why evasion needed a boost was totally undermined once I remembered that Arrow Dodging exists. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Dernière édition par ScrotieMcB#2697, le 26 mars 2013 à 17:44:46
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" This! I feel the Same. Good list so far :) Deutsche Fanseite>>>>>>>>> http://www.exiled.eu
English/German Gem DB>>>>>>>> http://www.exiled.eu/gems/ English/German Passive Skills DB>>>>>>>> http://www.exiled.eu/passives/ |
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