Remove Chaos Immunity From Chaos Inoculation

The problem with CI is that the original downsides, namely life being set at 1 and thus having to rely on pure ES, is a non-issue with Ghost Reaver and Vaal Pact. Maybe they should simply add "Cannot leech life and energy shield" to CI node. This would still allow non-CI builds to use the powerful Ghost Reaver and Vaal Pact combo.

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Emphasy a écrit :

Right now there is hardly any big oneshot chaos attacks, because there cannot be due to CI. So Chaos damage usually just adds a bit of damage here and there and a bunch of annoying degens. This means any character that has a high amount of leech and VP can basically ignore chaos damage because it will never oneshot him and given enough damage and leech he is instantly back to full anyway. The chaos immunity only helps CI builds that cannot use leech or heavy amounts of regeneration and rely at least partially on natural ES recovery.

Chayula has no pure chaos damage because CI with immunity are exist.

Vaal pact has no downside to CI builds, because they can't regen his 1/1 HP.

Zealot's Oath located to far away from CI node. Anyway, somebody use ZO?

So... how about remove immunity from CI by reducing resist from 100% to 75%, prevent chaos damage bypass energy shield and gain 'life regeneration applies to energy shield with XX.XX% value'? And with obtain Zealot's Oath from any sourse - increase or multiple that value by XX.XX%? (synergy)

Or just move ZO to CI sector.

Also, if you take Vaal Pact - you lose that regeneration, because it's not ES regen, it's life regen applied to ES. And now you must think: take VP or not, because without ES regen you can replenish ES only by attacking enemies, but is not always possible and situation with take damage even without enemies now will exist.

I played BM LL build with Shavronne's Wrappings and Shavronne's Revelation in right slot (3% ES regen) and this was enough to ignore chaos degen on maps with My 7500 ES.

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Zealot's Oath located to far away from CI node. Anyway, somebody use ZO?

A lot of builds use ZO, I likely even put a point in it without having regeneration, because you can easily get a bit of it, due to the new position there is hardly any cost associated with it and once you are in the 90+ you might want to look for some power you get for a single skillpoint and ZO can help in such situations.

ZO isn't bad it is just not as ridicolous as VP+GR, that is all. There are some issues with it because you can actually achieve ridicolous amounts but it is in a better state then VP+GR.

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So... how about remove immunity from CI by reducing resist from 100% to 75%, prevent chaos damage bypass energy shield and gain 'life regeneration applies to energy shield with XX.XX% value'? And with obtain Zealot's Oath from any sourse - increase or multiple that value by XX.XX%? (synergy)

Well that would mostly still kill those builds that rely on recovery, because the amount of damage is completly irrelevant. When I take a 1 damage ignite it can possibly kill me because it means I cannot recover ES for 4 seconds. And while it is reasonable to carry ignite and bleed removal around you cannot do that for poison as well because you will run out of flasks and are punished for no good reason.

Because again why even change this aspect of CI? The CI builds that are insanely powerful are the ones using leech to fill up that massive buffer instantly, and those don't care. The ability to remove poison clouds and poison and other chaos degeneration just means that there is less to stop your recovery, the damage of those things is mostly irrelevant so a change to the immunity would basically only hurt the recovery based CI builds not the leech based ones.

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Also, if you take Vaal Pact - you lose that regeneration, because it's not ES regen, it's life regen applied to ES. And now you must think: take VP or not, because without ES regen you can replenish ES only by attacking enemies, but is not always possible and situation with take damage even without enemies now will exist.

You still have ES recovery, VP has no downside for ES builds, because with recovery + leech you can always keep your ES filled up. Also you are hardly getting life reg accidently, there isn't much on this side of the tree, so you usually aim for it on purpose.

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I played BM LL build with Shavronne's Wrappings and Shavronne's Revelation in right slot (3% ES regen) and this was enough to ignore chaos degen on maps with My 7500 ES.

Try playing that build with only 1 life. BM removes a lot of issues and isn't avaible. Shavronnes revelation was made for lowlife builds, not for CI builds which will have troubles without manareg. Doing this would work if they remove the 1 life, but this would essentially devalue shavronnes wrappings completly.


The big issue here is that CI is perfectly fine as is. Yeah it messes with PvP, but nobody really cares about this, because honestly RT does as well. VP+GR is what pushes ES as a defense over the top because Lowlife is just as powerful as CI so it isn't CI that is the issue it is the combination of a high buffer with instant refill. Giving a high buffer to builds that might run into issues if it actually gets depleted is fine, however giving it to builds that refill this buffer instantly is an issue. The easiest solution would be to straight out remove Vaal Pact or add new downsides to VP, that are actually meaningful.

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Emphasy a écrit :

The big issue here is that CI is perfectly fine as is. Yeah it messes with PvP, but nobody really cares about this, because honestly RT does as well. VP+GR is what pushes ES as a defense over the top because Lowlife is just as powerful as CI so it isn't CI that is the issue it is the combination of a high buffer with instant refill. Giving a high buffer to builds that might run into issues if it actually gets depleted is fine, however giving it to builds that refill this buffer instantly is an issue. The easiest solution would be to straight out remove Vaal Pact or add new downsides to VP, that are actually meaningful.

Maybe just don't make it work with Ghost Reaver?

Removing the entire identity of CI is not a reasonable solution to life and energy shield balance. Armour/evasion need to get buffed to work reasonably well or energy shield should be nerfed to be in line with life builds.

PvP balance has no business influencing PvE balance.

The problem with CI is not the chaos immunity. That's just a minor perk. There are two issues with CI:
1. Passive investment in defense is lower than life. Life builds have to compromise survivability to get end game viable damage. CI builds don't.
2. Instant leech is overpowered and even more so when combined with the large buffer CI offers. It's OP for life builds too, they just don't get enough buffer and get one shotted by damage that's tuned to kill CI VP builds.

Chaos damage monsters are rare, but to say that Chaos immunity is a minor perk is a joke. I think CI should have 1 life like the others mentioned with no immunity to chaos damage, just make it so that it doesn't bypass energy shield. You could even throw a 30% chaos resistance or something. Right now as it stands, you have ES builds with 12k ES doing everything a life build can do and more while most life builds struggle around 5-7k hp getting 1 shot.

I do agree, just lettinh Chaos damage not Bypass ES would be enough. Or give a nice, similiar keystone down on the edge by the Maurader, maybe behind Blood Magic

Immune to physical damage, mana reduced to 1

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Chaos damage monsters are rare, but to say that Chaos immunity is a minor perk is a joke. I think CI should have 1 life like the others mentioned with no immunity to chaos damage, just make it so that it doesn't bypass energy shield. You could even throw a 30% chaos resistance or something. Right now as it stands, you have ES builds with 12k ES doing everything a life build can do and more while most life builds struggle around 5-7k hp getting 1 shot.

That is true for those insanely powerful GR+VP builds. They don't give a damn about chaos damage, if they would take 50% more damage by taking CI they would still not give a damn because they have more than 50% more buffer than most life buids and the big hits are often elemental spells anyway so the other defenses don't work against them either.

The CI Keystone isn't strong, actually before they rebuffed VP to get rid of that penalty and improved its location CI was considered incredible weak. Even with 2.0 it was still a bad keystone because we had a lot weaker sources of leech. The only thing that made CI so universally good was the implementation of many easy leech sources and of course the ease of getting good ES gear.

The Keystone is literally unchanged since its existence, yes it got some nodes behind it, which aren't really necessary, but the thing for actual recovery based CI builds is getting rid of things that deny you ES recovery. CI was always a decent option for builds that couldn't leech, because it offered a decent buffer to get out of harms way. And of course back then chaos damage was even rarer than it is now, but even in the current game removing the Chaos Immunity would only be a good move if you want to fuck up recovery based, exspecially summoners who rely on a few uniques denying them access to chaos res.


So the question is what do you want to nerf? If the answer is CI builds that do not use ZO or GR then this is the right move, but exspecially for GR builds it doesn't even matter slightly. They still have a 10k+ Buffer and chaos damage is hardly that meaningful, that it can burn through that much ES anyway. It only messes up those recovery based builds because every poison or ground based effect will block their ES recovery and it of course removes options to nerf those actually powerful builds with direct stabs at ES values because it would ruin those recovery based builds only further which again only leaves very few levers to handle the imbalance.

So if you want to fix CI vs. Life balance there are very simple options and that is not one of them

1. Remove Instant Leech
2. Remove Life given by Strength
3. Increase Life on gear (in the best case add a number to all life roles, so from worst to best they all gain 10 to 20 HP or something like this)
4. Adjust some life nodes that are too weak
(5. Ideally remove the scion life wheel for an armor wheel and redistribute the life around the tree)
(6. Nerf Damage of mobs a bit and make Fortify only protect your life pool, not mana or es)

Because this would address actual issues. Strength should boost its related Defense (Armor) like Intelligence and Dexterity does, because that way non-Strength based Life builds wouldn't be fucked up as much and the flat life is given back on gear.

Also removing the Scion wheel would remove pressure from life based builds to go there, which would also help. However removing the Chaos Immunity from CI doesn't do a damn in for the current misbalance because the good CI builds would still happily leech away, while the mediocre ones would now suffer from degeneration effects blocking recovery.

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I do agree, just lettinh Chaos damage not Bypass ES would be enough. Or give a nice, similiar keystone down on the edge by the Maurader, maybe behind Blood Magic

Immune to physical damage, mana reduced to 1

How is that even remotely similar. How about instead removing Mana and ES and giving Physical Immunity right away with Bloodmagic, so you have to take it. I honestly would love it if CI only grants "Chaos Damage cannot bypass ES" and another Keystone behind it gives "Life is set to 1 + Chaos Immunity". Nobody would take that second keystone because 30% more spelldamage is so much cooler and those nice auras. However interestingly we had that situation that basically every character was immune to physical damage that didn't oneshot and even that was not impressive, because while Physical Damage is infinitly more dangerous than Chaos Damage is right now, it is still not the most dangerous thing and we still died to Elemental Damage while having permanent Immortal Call.

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TwoStonedBrilliance a écrit :

One of the main reasons im saying this is if you have any kind of fun in pvp, and you make a chaos/poison build

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Vesuvius079 a écrit :

PvP balance has no business influencing PvE balance.

yeah pretty much gtfo with any kind of pvp balance ideas influencing anything to do with the pve game.