Maps: They're not the problem, End Game is.

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Slayer_Tip a écrit :

Maps was a great idea a few years ago, but now its coming to the point where, some builds can just, eat up t15s easily...

it's actually "most" builds, not just some of them. even without doing mainstream meta cheesing it's easy to come up with a build that crushes t15 maps.

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GeorgAnatoly a écrit :

Try an experiment - impose on yourself restrictions in character life duration and account wealth accumulation like some heavy ironman/rouguelike rules and see if that prevents some of that endgame perpetuation stagnation.

this may be an option for some, but not everyone. for me personally, playing ironman in any rng based game is just a stupid thing to do.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

I normally roll multiple maps at once. You know, so there's less of that start-stop nonsense.

I disagree with this thread. I personally see HUGE potentiality in a random content generation system which allows some degree of player control over random outcomes. I don't believe the right course would be to make alternative endgame content, but instead to expand upon maps.

I feel the single largest issue with maps is that their affix design seems to be designed for "rolling skill" and economy, rather than designed to provide players with the greatest variety of engaging endgame content. I get that maps are loot, but maps are content, too, and with the current system the latter fact often seems to be sacrificed to the former.

you disagree that we want alternative endgame content to maps? As in you think we actually want maps just different maps, even though we are saying we want an alternative?

I think you'd be more satisfied by a better map system implementation, if that's what you're asking.

POE is a PvE (player versus environment) game and I think it has evolved to a point where most of the difficulty comes from the "P" and very little comes from the "E." Basically the challenges are learning the right ways to build your character, acquiring adequate gear, choosing the right skills and links, things like that. The challenges don't come from Wraeclast, they come from the exile themself. Once you master character building, the environment offers minimal threat to you.

The problem here is that the environment should be offering persistent challenge, because the environment is where all the unpredictable random elements of the game are located. If the challenge isn't in the random elements, then no emergent gameplay is constructed, so what's really the point of continuing once you realize that?

I think the labyrinth was one step in the right direction, but the community recoiled because nobody likes facing something hard until after they are done with it. It is the paradox of a game: if it doesn't challenge us at least a little, then it isn't engaging. But when it is hard then players excoriate it because any difficulty that comes from "E" is artificial. I think a good game designer is both the player's friend but also the player's nemesis. Because a game designer that is always your friend makes a boring game with no challenge. While one that is always your nemesis makes an impossible game with no solution. A balance between the two must be struck.

I thought up an example of how this design strategy might be executed, but after writing it out I think it deserves its own topic so rather than post it here I will link to it once I make that topic.

edit:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1662960

How about making all maps be variable levels so that for example the Tropical Island could be dropped as T1 to T20, then the end game contents suddenly more than doubles.


Edit: I have a good idea.

For vaaled maps, after killing the map boss, it opens a portal to next level with an adequate number of additional map mods added without changing the iR and iQ.


Edit 2: Ultimate solution would be to give players more floor space and tile sets for their hideouts, and randomly connect some of those verified hideouts with some monsters. I always think GGG is wasting the resources from the participation of players in game like the featured beautiful hideouts. This game currently does not allow any player participation in game unless supporting a lot.

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TrichocereusSP a écrit :

after killing the map boss, it opens a portal to next level with an adequate number of additional map mods added without changing the iR and iQ.

deal.

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mynameisonlyforthegods a écrit :

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Slayer_Tip a écrit :

Maps was a great idea a few years ago, but now its coming to the point where, some builds can just, eat up t15s easily...

it's actually "most" builds, not just some of them. even without doing mainstream meta cheesing it's easy to come up with a build that crushes t15 maps.

Lol... Biggest lie being spread so far, add me on Standard and let's see how many builds you've come up with can kill T15 Malachai and Daresso with any mod I roll?

I have to agree with this thread. Perandus was the first league since launch that I decided to get to level 90+, ended up 91 in the tier 11-12 region. Nothing at all changed. I don't mind the map system but its just not engaging.

I thought the mods got better as you went higher but nothing really engaged me as a player.
Most of the mods making you deal less damage or make the monster deal more damage. You get a random curse which just results in higher damage taken, especially with combinations from the first set.
Then you get mods that say: You can run this map or You can't run this map, based on your build.
Blood Magic, Ele Reflect, Phys Reflect, Less Regen.. some builds just flat out can't do some of these mods and thats a shame.

I think the only 2 engaging mods are Twinned and Beyond. Which change how the map is played out.
I didn't play the flashback race too much, only got to 68. Too much Dark Souls 3 atm.
However I will say, seeing alot of these older mods combined created some interesting fights.
These things should be more of the norm and not set to random race events here and there. Not hidden behind currency spending with Zana. It should be in the game all the time.

Not to mention we have so much power now as players. The game needs a far more engaging endgame system. Maps are fine, but it needs more fight to it. The theorycraft is great in this game, but the endgame hasn't really evolved much since the games release.

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StDrakeX a écrit :

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mynameisonlyforthegods a écrit :

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Slayer_Tip a écrit :

Maps was a great idea a few years ago, but now its coming to the point where, some builds can just, eat up t15s easily...

it's actually "most" builds, not just some of them. even without doing mainstream meta cheesing it's easy to come up with a build that crushes t15 maps.

Lol... Biggest lie being spread so far, add me on Standard and let's see how many builds you've come up with can kill T15 Malachai and Daresso with any mod I roll?

I mean, to be fair, i personally dont make builds with the mindset of (i gotta beat t15), i kinda make my own builds with the mindset of "how far can this concept be taken in this game"

The fact that even most build can chew up and spit out t12+ maps just makes you wonder if there is going to be more challenging aspects in the end game... at the moment, it feels incredibly dull, and it explains why people leave leagues after half of its duration is done.

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Slayer_Tip a écrit :

I mean, to be fair, i personally dont make builds with the mindset of (i gotta beat t15), i kinda make my own builds with the mindset of "how far can this concept be taken in this game"

The fact that even most build can chew up and spit out t12+ maps just makes you wonder if there is going to be more challenging aspects in the end game... at the moment, it feels incredibly dull, and it explains why people leave leagues after half of its duration is done.

Well your mindset isn't really applicable in what you're saying since are you trying to push your builds to do actual current end game, which is T14-15 Bosses, and the various other Unique Map bosses; Vinktar, Atziri & Uber (Hopefully Rigwald get's his chance in this game again)

If your view of end game is chewing out T12 maps or whatever (mind you most people don't even get this far) and it's not challenging then simply challenge yourself. This game is all about self-imposed challenges and goals. Try to do it in; Challenge Leagues if you're a Standard player, Hardcore if you're a Softcore Player, Self Found if you're normally heavily reliant on trading.

And to your point about players leaving after half the leagues duration, yeah it's understandable that they do. It can't be helped, the game is based on re-rolling and fresh economy ladder races that are aligned with content patches. This League is the first I've seen a more steady amount of player activity throughout the league based on my Guild. I even have people still wanting to join this late in the League which does say something...