Please scale spectres up as well as down (Or another alternative for summoner QoL)
"
joachimbond a écrit :
Your niggling over semantic points where your comprehension is lacking is what is causing the problem you're having. NOT what I've actually said.
Somehow, you're not doing your job as a communicator.
They are a gaggle of lucky computer nerds. They are young and green. I don't expect world-class professionalism from them. Neither should anyone else. Just be willing to be the squeaky wheel when it counts.
Like the chuckle from Chris when he was asked if there would be a legacy version of the Voltaxic Rift? Yeah right. He's a young guy with a great head on his shoulders, but is about as professional (in the sense that you're using the term) as Donald Trump is politically correct.
I have to hand it to you, you are more responsible and upright and disciplined than I would have thought possible for someone who spends a significant portion of their time playing an ARPG.
Really. I thought this was a hobby for nolifes and middling schlubs like myself. But you establish a new gold standard with your expectations of conduct. I hope you don't feel too badly about it when everyone lets you down.
A) That first sentence mocks itself. An incomprhensible sentence that claims my comprehension is lacking? I mean, I don't much care for grammer nazi-ing, but....That sentence makes no sense with how you've strung words together.
B) My job as a communicator? HA. It's a game forum, unless you've the GGG tag you're not here for a job at all.
C) Young/Green doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't be professional. It's not a hard thing to do if you value it. It's really easy. It's called, do your job to the best of your abilities, whether you like it or not, or whether you're doing it as you want to, or in the order/priority you want to. You signed on for a job to, in this case, make a game and cater to player needs and desires...your needs and desires come below that. No job is all positives, but the majority of them time the negatives you've agreed to are pretty dang clear beforehand.
D) The chuckle...I'm sorry, did you foolishly decide that humor and professionalism can't mix? They can. I thought it was funny myself, TBH.
E) My hobbies don't have a particular impact on my work life, nor do they serve as a viable indication of really anything in my work life. Yes, there are plenty of "nolifes" who play POE, and people middling along...but that's not all, and that doesn't prevent "nolifes" and people such as yourself from being professional in their work.
Moral Rant:
Spoiler
F) NEW gold standard? No, it's the old gold standard, before we decided it was a good idea to toss morality out the window, and see what happened. Worldwide, so many amoral actions have been undertaken by various governments that people are starting to mistake them for moral and right. That doesn't change the nature of the action, simply the perception. In this case...Because so few politicians are professional or caring in their job, and this has been true for quite some time, the effect has trickled down. Nowadays, there are almost no jobs where lacking professionalism will really get you fired all by itself, so without a need for it, few bother, despite it being the moral action to undertake. Morality takes effort, and without anyone forcing that effort, or setting the example, nobody bothers. Since our current examples are all negative, the current popular behaviors are all negative. See the connection? Consequences to things like our celebrities and our politicians.
Also, Politically Correct is a myth, the concept changes weekly if not sooner, and often contradicts both itself and previous versions. I dislike Trump for many reasons, but his refusal to adhere to a nonexistent idyll like PC speech is not one of them. Show me someone who's politically correct all the time, saying nothing that offends anyone....And I'll show you a mute.
Your niggling over semantic points where your comprehension is lacking is what is causing the problem you're having. NOT what I've actually said.
Somehow, you're not doing your job as a communicator.
They are a gaggle of lucky computer nerds. They are young and green. I don't expect world-class professionalism from them. Neither should anyone else. Just be willing to be the squeaky wheel when it counts.
Like the chuckle from Chris when he was asked if there would be a legacy version of the Voltaxic Rift? Yeah right. He's a young guy with a great head on his shoulders, but is about as professional (in the sense that you're using the term) as Donald Trump is politically correct.
I have to hand it to you, you are more responsible and upright and disciplined than I would have thought possible for someone who spends a significant portion of their time playing an ARPG.
Really. I thought this was a hobby for nolifes and middling schlubs like myself. But you establish a new gold standard with your expectations of conduct. I hope you don't feel too badly about it when everyone lets you down.
A) That first sentence mocks itself. An incomprhensible sentence that claims my comprehension is lacking? I mean, I don't much care for grammer nazi-ing, but....That sentence makes no sense with how you've strung words together.
That's a comprehension problem on your end.
"
B) My job as a communicator? HA. It's a game forum, unless you've the GGG tag you're not here for a job at all.
I think you know what I meant. Disingenuous trolling, once again.
"
C) Young/Green doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't be professional. It's not a hard thing to do if you value it. It's really easy. It's called, do your job to the best of your abilities, whether you like it or not, or whether you're doing it as you want to, or in the order/priority you want to. You signed on for a job to, in this case, make a game and cater to player needs and desires...your needs and desires come below that. No job is all positives, but the majority of them time the negatives you've agreed to are pretty dang clear beforehand.
D) The chuckle...I'm sorry, did you foolishly decide that humor and professionalism can't mix? They can. I thought it was funny myself, TBH.
The moment when you inform someone that you killed their pet, and laugh about it (and my voltaxic was like a pet to me), is the moment you stop being a professional in "that" sense.
"
E) My hobbies don't have a particular impact on my work life, nor do they serve as a viable indication of really anything in my work life. Yes, there are plenty of "nolifes" who play POE, and people middling along...but that's not all, and that doesn't prevent "nolifes" and people such as yourself from being professional in their work.
But there's so much hung-upness in your words. Man I can't take it any more. I'm really done with you. Bye.
Quoting Saltychipmunk:
...I look at the new act 5 boss where you have to hide behind the statues to survive the bullet hell and all I can think is... how the fuck are zombies going to survive that?
They don't know what hiding is... they don't know what dodging is... they are morons.
The moment when you inform someone that you killed their pet, and laugh about it (and my voltaxic was like a pet to me), is the moment you stop being a professional in "that" sense.
...Your bow was like a pet? Okay man, that's SO not an issue I can or will help you with. This is a game. If any one item in it means that much to you, then you really do have an issue that you need fixed. Gollum is not a great role model, man.
That bow was OP, and it needed to change. Leaving a legacy version, especially after Perandus with so many now available, would be the same as doubling the price, nothing else, because there were too many to BE legacy. Much less the point that Legacy items should never exist at all, and make no sense for game balance. "This is OP, we'll nerf it...when it drops. But your old versions? Yeah, that somehow NOT OP, and NOT affecting game balance at all, even though we've announced the old version is OP." Legacy items never made sense in the first place, and they make even less sense in this case, with so many around just from Perandus, much less Standard.
EDIT: Goddanged annoying quote system. Arg.
- Sheepster
Dernière édition par Nssheepster#7811, le 24 mai 2016 à 03:00:19
I understand the fight the two of you are having about whether or not an argument is correct. However the case was to keep this thread alive for the sake of the original argument, which I have done and added to the discussion. As of now I have bumped the thread 2 times and each time I have seen the two of you fight it out verbally effectively derailing the thread. Could you please take this to pm's and continue it there?
I understand the fight the two of you are having about whether or not an argument is correct. However the case was to keep this thread alive for the sake of the original argument, which I have done and added to the discussion. As of now I have bumped the thread 2 times and each time I have seen the two of you fight it out verbally effectively derailing the thread. Could you please take this to pm's and continue it there?
What would be the point? Realistically the thread has nothing else to add. The only thing that could actually ADVANCE the thread is a GGG response, and that's unlikely.
What would be the point? Realistically the thread has nothing else to add. The only thing that could actually ADVANCE the thread is a GGG response, and that's unlikely.
Ah, so now you not only know Path of Exiles source code, but also what other people could possibly (not) contribute to this topic. Pretty impressive.
I understand the fight the two of you are having about whether or not an argument is correct. However the case was to keep this thread alive for the sake of the original argument, which I have done and added to the discussion. As of now I have bumped the thread 2 times and each time I have seen the two of you fight it out verbally effectively derailing the thread. Could you please take this to pm's and continue it there?
Gladly.
I'm not responding to sheepster anymore. He's gotten enough of my attention away from the issue at hand, which is:
FREE MY SPECTRES FROM HIDDEN MAPS!
Quoting Saltychipmunk:
...I look at the new act 5 boss where you have to hide behind the statues to survive the bullet hell and all I can think is... how the fuck are zombies going to survive that?
They don't know what hiding is... they don't know what dodging is... they are morons.
GGG has answered this question before, though, one year ago:
"
Mark_GGG a écrit :
Disclaimer: Not directly responsible for Balance. I implemented Raise Spectre and was thus involved directly in the balance discussions of certain aspects of their mechanic, and can comment on what I know, but I can't speak as definitively or in as much detail on any balance stuff as a member of the actual balance team (at the time Raise Spectre was implemented, that was just Chris, and I asked him directly how things should work).
"
SRS scales differently than Zombies/Spectres, in the sense that they don't scale at all. They work just as your arc gem would, or your tornado shot etc. If you have a level 20 SRS gem and go into a level 20 zone, they're still level 20 SRS minions. The same "minion" you use to map with is able to go into lower level zones without penalty.
That's not different to Zombies - they work exactly the same way as Zombies. And Skeletons, Animated Weapons, Animated Guardian, and pretty much any other standard minion. I have no idea where you got the idea that Raging Spirits are special in this regard, but it simply isn't true. This is how any minion that's created directly by a gem works.
Raise Spectre is different because it's a fundamentally different skill. It's not creating a minion of a set level, it's making a minion based on a corpse. By defeating the monster, you get to have that monster including it's level. Ideally they wouldn't scale at all, but they need to scale down to prevent abuse cases where someone kills crazy strong monsters for you, portals you in to take them, and you then go trivialise your levelling or other running of lower-level content. That's the reason for the scaling mechanic, and it clearly doesn't apply in reverse, so saying that they inherently have to scale up because they scale down is false - the reason for the scaling simply isn't present.
You compare Raise Spectre to Arc, which isn't the right comparison because Arc is like Raise Zombie or Summon Raging Spirit - it's creating a (damage) effect at a set level, just like those skills create a minion at a set level that doesn't change. Raise Spectre's (and Dominating Blow's) damage equivalent isn't Arc, it's Detonate Dead - you're getting a thing based directly on a thing you've beaten, not on your gem. Getting a powerful explosion from Detonate Dead means killing a strong monster which has lots of life (or getting one with Desecrate). Similarly, getting a strong spectre means killing a strong monster (or Desecrate, again). No-one would want you to be able to kill a bunch of low-level monsters then bring the corpses with you to high-level content to blow them up. Because we want spectres to follow between areas, we have to address the equivalent case. You're fundamentally getting a minion based on the monster you killed, not a higher-level version of itself. Scaling down is an unfortunately necessary mechanic to prevent an abuse that simply isn't there when scaling in the other direction. So no, Arc doesn't scale down in damage when you go to other areas. Neither do Zombies, Raging Spirits, Weapons, etc if you take that skill to lower level zones, and if you don't want minions that scale down, those are all options. Similarly, Detonate Dead will do much less damage if you use it in low-level zones due to the lower levelled monsters there, and so will Raise Spectre for similar reasons - in both cases there are other skills that can be used that work the other way.
So before bringing up the massive workload and balance issues with giving monsters versions of their skills for all levels (which goes beyond just numbers, because some things are binary on the important details, and intended to exist in certain content level bands), The reason I'd say they don't scale up is that scaling them up simply isn't equivalent to the down case, and goes against the fundamental point of the skill, which is getting the thing you killed.
"
But I don't want crappy tiny monkeys, or the sludge zombies from act I, I want CLEAVE BEARS.
There may well be things we can do to improve the variety of monsters that can be found at high levels to be used as spectres, but at the same time there may be reasons why certain monsters or their mechanics can't fit into the balance the same way at high levels they do at their intended niche. That would again be more the balance team's area to work out.
Regarding the points on use of skills, Spectres have exactly the same AI as when not spectres. They use skills in the same situations. Yes, monsters use mana, and there are plenty of monsters where that's the primary timing mechanic - we know how much mana they have and how fast it regenerates, so set them to use skills when they can (and in some cases their AI specifically uses other skills when their mana is low, for example). For others mana consumption isn't a big issue, and it's based on the situation they're in - things such as numbers and positions of allies/enemies, which may well be different when they're minions compared to when they're monsters, because they'll mostly be expecting to fight a few strong enemies, not swarms of them. Also, they draw aggro from their master rather than themselves when working out what to attack and follow (or where their master is targeting, as applicable). Careful observation of monsters in their natural habitat might give some clues as to what makes them act in certain ways, and if you have specific examples of monsters where the AI doesn't seem to act enough when on the player team then feel free to let us know so we can look into them.
TL;DR: You're mistaken about minion scaling on non-spectres, spectres are Detonate Dead, not Arc, and scaling down is only there because it's needed for reasons that simply don't apply to scaling up
@Mark_GGG:
August 20, 2014, patch 1.2.0, Detonate Dead received flat damage in addition to its corpse-scaled damage. At level 20, it is 276–414 fire damage, which is comparable to other spells. This means if you go to Act 1 Normal, your Detonate Dead will still deal significant damage. Raise Spectre, on the other hand, is entirely scaled down.
When GGG added Act 4, my summoner felt the impact of this. When they added Labyrinth, same story. Eventually, Act 5 will come out.
Down-leveling creates unintended problems, leads to user confusion, and is an antiquated solution to a potential abuse that is better solved by the newer Desecrate. Mark_GGG could have his ideal non-scaling Spectres, as you would need a high level gem to raise high level spectres, which in turn requires you to be a high level to socket and use.
Up-scaling is something Detonate Dead does as well, which makes its comparison to Raise Spectre even more faulty. If Spectres up-scaled, the leveling experience would feel far smoother. It feels good when Raise Zombie or Summon Raging Spirits gains a gem level, because I can sense an immediate power boost. Raise Spectre? None at all. I would have to raise something new in the current zone, but the socket color system works against what would otherwise be a pretty cool feature. It would be like if Detonate Dead's damage was capped until you resocketed it in the current zone, only when you pull it out it changes gem color and damage type.
As for the core theme of the gem, raising the monster you beat, this is violated when you defeat and raise a magic or rare monster. The monster you get is not what you struggled against and triumphed over. It is a white mob, regardless of what it was before, something that often takes less than a second to kill. I am not getting the thing I killed. Now, GGG could simply disallow raising magic and rare monsters to defeat this argument, as the ability to do so is more of a convenience feature. It's fine, though, I never had a problem getting a white mob, but this raises an important point: I don't think it's wise to stick so hard to the initial theme if it is sacrificing usability. A Spectre you have painstakingly supported with the chromatic raffle becoming too weak as you reach higher content, and when you reach high tier maps with their monster RNG and have no reliable source of a specific monster type at that level, is a usability concern that needs to be addressed in a fair and fun way.
I love Raise Spectre. It is my favorite ability because of its depth and potential. I use it in spite of its hurdles because of that love, but the burnout is real. I give up on this game time and again, but the builds and unique gem system rope me back in (chromatics suck balls, though). Please make my play experience a little more bearable, because I want to keep liking this game.
Dernière édition par Hercanic#3982, le 27 mai 2016 à 06:56:46
Really, I looked for information like this but gave up after about 20 minutes.
I do have another idea. Maybe create a cheap, unique Tier 15 map sold only by Zana (level 3 or higher), called "Land of the Dead", and have it populated with nothing but corpses. at least 5 corpses of every main type, grouped by zone type. They could even be in the same place every time. There's no need to randomize, because we're just going in there to get our mobs.
But seriously, this is getting tiresome. I mean, I leave my character logged in for days at a time. Why? because it takes ferfrickin' ever to get my spectres in maps, and the act 4 versions are just too weak for high-mid-tier mapping.
Quoting Saltychipmunk:
...I look at the new act 5 boss where you have to hide behind the statues to survive the bullet hell and all I can think is... how the fuck are zombies going to survive that?
They don't know what hiding is... they don't know what dodging is... they are morons.
Dernière édition par joachimbond#0494, le 27 mai 2016 à 03:39:56
