Melee vs. Ranged: A solution

"

goetzjam a écrit :

"

Mannoth a écrit :

"

goetzjam a écrit :

Your comparing apples to bananas here, the classic poe melee skills are without a doubt shit, even if they had free melee splash, like I think they should have it still won't allow them to compete with even the "new style" melee skills like sunder or earthquake.


All of these fail regardless of how strong ranged ability counterparts are, they cant even compete with the melee abilities used to date, it has NOTHING to do with the ranged vs melee argument, it has to do with shit skills vs better skills.

Because new "melee" skills are as about as melee as me using a bow, I am talking about actual melee skills not the ranged/aoe skills with a melee tag that work with a melee weapon.

I really hate this statement here. Melee is about a playstyle not about how the skill "works". As always in these discussions there is ALWAYS someone like you that thinks only the traditional skills that require a melee splash gem are "true melee"

Sorry bro that isn't how this game works. They are all considered melee because the distance between you and the mobs isn't that great. The second part is that it uses the equipped weapon to attack, this is important otherwise things like freeze pulse could be considered "melee' although it does have similar disadvantages.


The solution cannot be lets drag everything down to the shit level of melee splash abilities, because quite frankly that is simply unfun, if it was PEOPLE WOULD BE PLAYING IT. The solution is to improve the melee splash style abilities and most likely make it so all of them splash naturally. There isn't a need to penalize these single target skills, like there is a need to penalize other things in this game that adds splash like effects, like GMP\ect.

"

Possible solutions:
-Introduce a node which makes it impossible to take hits bigger than 6k and put it behind bloodmagic in tree.
-Give marauder +16 life/level, 6 mana/level
Witch: 8 life/level, 12 mana/level.
So dependent on the class you pick you get different stats each level.
This would hopefully also fix the mana problems casters are having.
-Give all melee gems splash/fortify so they actually stand a chance vs 1 shotters/groups.
Reduce monster damage and nerf range hard.
-Grant experience per damage point you take.
-Buff reflect of elemental damage or reflect from ranged skills.
-Do something about that retarded position of vaal pact.

No to the node, bloodmagic isn't exclusive to melee nor is it a mandatory melee style node.

Again marauder isn't exclusive to melee, nor all inclusive either.

There are life based witch characters, so to gut their life isn't acceptable. Again not all ranged characters are witches. Making different stats per level essentially just forces people to play a hybrid class in the case of life based ones and pure ones for things like marauder, which goes directly against what ascendancy was meant to do.

This is also something which is strange, sure witch can go melee. But let's take a look at witch ascendancy classes, there aren't any ranged ones. Sure duelist can go casterlike, let's look at duelist ascendancy classes, no casterlike ones. So I don't get the point, why not specialise the norhtern regions more into mana/es and southeren regions into life? Sure it needs balancing same for experience on damage (and of course you exclude rightous fire and traps). But how many melee builds are in the top 10000 vs ranged builds? It of course aint a balance fix, but just a little gimmick.

"

Vengeor a écrit :

This is also something which is strange, sure witch can go melee. But let's take a look at witch ascendancy classes, there aren't any ranged ones. Sure duelist can go casterlike, let's look at duelist ascendancy classes, no casterlike ones. So I don't get the point, why not specialise the norhtern regions more into mana/es and southeren regions into life? Sure it needs balancing same for experience on damage (and of course you exclude rightous fire and traps). But how many melee builds are in the top 10000 vs ranged builds? It of course aint a balance fix, but just a little gimmick.

Look at the shadow, look at the templar, those ones really can go either way. The duelist is opposite of the witch, but technically speaking can still go caster an benefit from fortify, I think the best would be a proj style iron will character, even if I waste travel nodes on it.


In terms of changing it so they are es\mana instead of life\es\mana, the nodes around the area for the most part dictate the build playstyles available, but that doesn't count jewels that convert nodes. It also doesn't count the fact that not all witch characters want to go hybrid or ES, some want to go life, just like some shadows want to go life, ect.


Right, its not a fix, its just a gimmick and an unnecessary one at that.

"

goetzjam a écrit :

I really hate this statement here. Melee is about a playstyle not about how the skill "works". As always in these discussions there is ALWAYS someone like you that thinks only the traditional skills that require a melee splash gem are "true melee"

Sorry bro that isn't how this game works. They are all considered melee because the distance between you and the mobs isn't that great. The second part is that it uses the equipped weapon to attack, this is important otherwise things like freeze pulse could be considered "melee' although it does have similar disadvantages.


The solution cannot be lets drag everything down to the shit level of melee splash abilities, because quite frankly that is simply unfun, if it was PEOPLE WOULD BE PLAYING IT. The solution is to improve the melee splash style abilities and most likely make it so all of them splash naturally. There isn't a need to penalize these single target skills, like there is a need to penalize other things in this game that adds splash like effects, like GMP\ect.

Let me quote:

"

Melee (/ˈmeɪleɪ/ or /ˈmɛleɪ/, French: mêlée [mɛle]; the French spelling is also quite frequent in English writing), generally refers to disorganized close combat in battles fought at abnormally close range with little central control once it starts.

Abnormally close range mate, not hitting from half/full screen away and watching enemies explode.

And people aren't playing melee skills because melee targeting sucks balls and is downright unplayable with namelocking without multistrike. I very much like playing stuff like infernal blow & glacial hammer and would use them if I didn't have to rely on multistrike to hit stuff.

And no, me attacking from a screen range away with Spectral Throw or Lightning Strike or Reave is not melee.

It might not be fun for people because there is absolutely ZERO incentive to actually be in melee range and not be "pseudo melee" with new skills and the actual melee targeting sucks, but stop labeling stuff like sunder melee please.

My bow build is actually melee because I attack with the equipped weapon, the fact that stuff screen 2 screens away is exploding is irrelevant, stop labeling me ranged!

"

Mannoth a écrit :

Let me quote:

"

Melee (/ˈmeɪleɪ/ or /ˈmɛleɪ/, French: mêlée [mɛle]; the French spelling is also quite frequent in English writing), generally refers to disorganized close combat in battles fought at abnormally close range with little central control once it starts.

Abnormally close range mate, not hitting from half/full screen away and watching enemies explode.

And people aren't playing melee skills because melee targeting sucks balls and is downright unplayable with namelocking without multistrike. I very much like playing stuff like infernal blow & glacial hammer and would use them if I didn't have to rely on multistrike to hit stuff.

And no, me attacking from a screen range away with Spectral Throw or Lightning Strike or Reave is not melee.

It might not be fun for people because there is absolutely ZERO incentive to actually be in melee range and not be "pseudo melee" with new skills and the actual melee targeting sucks, but stop labeling stuff like sunder melee please.

Well, if that's the definition of melee - abnormally close range - then I think short-ranged characters should still have some range on their primary skills (I'm not talking a lot, roughly equally to a decent AoE Radius centered on self), and the "true melee" skills should be designed not as primary skills but as greedy opportunistic high-DPS options for boss fights when/if you can briefly get in safely.

This is supposed to be a hardcore ARPG. If you're right next to the big bad, more likely than not you should be dead a second later. It's definitely not a position you should expect to maintain.

That said, name locking problems should mostly be a ranged complaint, not a melee one. It's absurd that everything ranged is either massive AoE or becomes massive AoE with a handful of support gems. With more reasonable ranged AoE levels (meaning nearly none), missing with one's arrows should be a more common issue than it is.

"

ScrotieMcB a écrit :

"

Mannoth a écrit :

Let me quote:

"

Melee (/ˈmeɪleɪ/ or /ˈmɛleɪ/, French: mêlée [mɛle]; the French spelling is also quite frequent in English writing), generally refers to disorganized close combat in battles fought at abnormally close range with little central control once it starts.

Abnormally close range mate, not hitting from half/full screen away and watching enemies explode.

And people aren't playing melee skills because melee targeting sucks balls and is downright unplayable with namelocking without multistrike. I very much like playing stuff like infernal blow & glacial hammer and would use them if I didn't have to rely on multistrike to hit stuff.

And no, me attacking from a screen range away with Spectral Throw or Lightning Strike or Reave is not melee.

It might not be fun for people because there is absolutely ZERO incentive to actually be in melee range and not be "pseudo melee" with new skills and the actual melee targeting sucks, but stop labeling stuff like sunder melee please.

Well, if that's the definition of melee - abnormally close range - then I think short-ranged characters should still have some range on their primary skills (I'm not talking a lot, roughly equally to a decent AoE Radius centered on self), and the "true melee" skills should be designed not as primary skills but as greedy opportunistic high-DPS options for boss fights when/if you can briefly get in safely.

This is supposed to be a hardcore ARPG. If you're right next to the big bad, more likely than not you should be dead a second later. It's definitely not a position you should expect to maintain.

That said, name locking problems should mostly be a ranged complaint, not a melee one. It's absurd that everything ranged is either massive AoE or becomes massive AoE with a handful of support gems. With more reasonable ranged AoE levels (meaning nearly none), missing with one's arrows should be a more common issue than it is.

Honestly smcb you are arguing points now that simply won't be changed. There isn't anyway to remove the mechanics in the game to reach the level of the ranged vs melee balance like you are suggesting, so at this point it would be focus on what they actually can do in order to improve the situation.

In terms of spectral throw not being melee, obviously it isn't, there were 2 conditionals that were necessary and spectral throw doesnt meet both. Technically the hidden, but obvious 3rd is what GGG defines as melee with the tag.

Also scmcb we've already established that a high single target setup really doesnt work as a solution for melee because of the stress of links in the game. An improvement by incorporating melee splash into those abilities naturally would help but it alone isn't the solution.

People should, IMO be more focused on what to improve melee, with splash abilities being the ones that need the help the most, instead of what you can remove from another build. I dont know how many times I have to say this if melee splash abilities cant compete with natural AOE melee abilities, as defined by GGG then they would\will never compete with ranged, so focus on the first layer problem first, instead of the problem of what other playstyles have.

Any discussion about removing this or removing that still doens't improve the situation where splash abilities have to compete again its own "playstyle" elements. They could nerf ranged abilities and spells by 25% and it wouldn't make melee splash abilities better, so focus on those abilities and how to make them better instead of making everything else worst. If they need to do a 25% global damage reduction later in order to make power creep less of an issue that is fine too, but focus on IMPROVING MELEE SPLASH STYLE ABILITIES, everything else is truly useless discussion at this point.