Giga-Nerf Blood Mage, life on hit, life regen and life leech in Patch 0.4.0

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Xzorn#7046 a écrit :

It's a little funny to think back to Diablo 1 which had true Lifesteal. Flat %, historically a very dangerous sustain method and yet it wasn't game breaking.

Diablo 1 & 2 are goated, but we've strayed far away from those haven't we D:
I agree it should be used sparingly and intelligently. I think there could be "niche space" for a build which sacrifices an enormous amount of their hit pool for regen, so that they are frequently one-shot but otherwise are able to shrug off hits. So long as the trade off is particular, and explicit, so that it does not have an influence on how the monsters are balanced with regard to all other builds. But it's dangerous design territory, as you point out.

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Xzorn#7046 a écrit :

Less but more meaningful enemies. Damage output which that LS% was based on and interactions like stagger made the Healing spell more ideal. Imagine casting heal in a modern ARPG.

Healing spells in PoE2.. that would be the dream. Imagine meaningful party play where tactics matter and the diveristy of builds and their supporting roles were tangible, rather than the screen lighting up like Christmas and never engaging with monster mechanics.

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Xzorn#7046 a écrit :

Players inherently heard to damage in PoE because the defense systems are designed to fail. While the damage system just has a few layers to overcome. If you have to put 70% DR on Ubers so they stay alive that's a pretty big red flag. Yet they make the same mistakes in PoE2.

100%
I believe this largely stems from the "sustain" problem. Johnathan has said that he doesn't want players to trivialize bosses by being "unkillable" due to defenses. So instead, they are made trivial by damage instead.

Having strong defenses shouldn't make you invincible in PoE, but because the player is so easily able to recoup their life and mana, they are 'effectively invincible in practice' if their defenses can outpace the incoming damage; hence we get one-shots as a means of counter-play by the monsters. Instead, strong defenses should result in lesser attrition.

The other aspect to the incentivization of scaling damage, is how multiplicative scaling works (imo should be all but eliminated, and instead use more linear scaling) and the fact that intrinsic to the game, is how fast-clearing content gives better results. I feel like many players are arguing for their personal experience of getting the results (loot) and not thinking about what could actually make the combat more interesting.

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SaiyanZ#3112 a écrit :

I don't know. The damage of those builds are pretty good but the price they pay is low EHP and their life total is constantly sperging out from like 0HP to 8000HP. So if they don't instantly kill everything in sight they can easily just fall over. It may be fun for a little while but it gets old. When I ask some of these guys what's their "/deaths", their answer is usually like 200. Those builds are basically full glass cannons. The "high" HP of 8k+ is misleading.

This! I'm trying out a blood age build with Atalui atm, and despite being geared to the high heavens, life constantly goes from 2% to 6500 all the time. Somebody sneezes at me at the wrong (or right) time, and I'm dead. Everything happens way too quickly to use life flasks too. The life pool is very misleading. Particularly due to no ele resistance with Veil of the night.

Much the same with high ES builds. People see 12k ES and freak out. But ES has basically zero mitigation. You get hit, and take full damage (ele res aside). Unlike life builds with high armour and other layers of defence.

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Pangaearocks#9280 a écrit :

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SaiyanZ#3112 a écrit :

I don't know. The damage of those builds are pretty good but the price they pay is low EHP and their life total is constantly sperging out from like 0HP to 8000HP. So if they don't instantly kill everything in sight they can easily just fall over. It may be fun for a little while but it gets old. When I ask some of these guys what's their "/deaths", their answer is usually like 200. Those builds are basically full glass cannons. The "high" HP of 8k+ is misleading.

This! I'm trying out a blood age build with Atalui atm, and despite being geared to the high heavens, life constantly goes from 2% to 6500 all the time. Somebody sneezes at me at the wrong (or right) time, and I'm dead. Everything happens way too quickly to use life flasks too. The life pool is very misleading. Particularly due to no ele resistance with Veil of the night.

Much the same with high ES builds. People see 12k ES and freak out. But ES has basically zero mitigation. You get hit, and take full damage (ele res aside). Unlike life builds with high armour and other layers of defence.

Yeah, people who cry for these nerfs don't know a shit about the game.

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WhisperSlade#0532 a écrit :

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Kabajisan#2683 a écrit :

I don’t understand the need to give feedback that calls for nerfs in a PvE game.
I’ve played tons of games, and I get why people complain about playing against certain classes or roles in PvP but in PvE, nerfs mostly affect everyone negatively.

The person who stops playing because their favorite build got nerfed is the lesser experience of tomorrow and maybe even the item of tomorrow if you’re into trading.

How is suggesting nerfs on classes ever helpful in a game where we’re all fighting the environment, not each other?

- Player economy
- Build diversity
- But most importantly, and the reason we're talking about here, is the way the game plays in PvE. "then don't play those builds" too late, the game was balanced with them in mind.

Do a thought experiment: if the player had a skill where you could one-click and do 10 million damage to every monster on the map, should it be nerfed? Well, everything in the game falls onto that spectrum between non-viable, and that. If you don't understand, it's likely for lack of trying.

Firstly, you don’t really explain any of the statements you wrote:

Player economy

Build diversity

You just listed these without defining what you mean.
That leaves me having to guess your intended argument, and if I respond based on those guesses, you can later say I misunderstood — even though you never explained yourself to begin with.

It’s like me making a statement and saying:

“The math adds up, guys.”

“Every build has its strengths and weaknesses.”

Saying things like this can make you sound smart, but players who actually look deeper will realize you’re not explaining anything — just trying to sound authoritative without showing real understanding of game balance.

Now, about your “10 million damage” thought experiment:

That’s the only part of your reply that actually contributes to the discussion.

It’s true that builds dominating the scene should be looked at for balance — or that other builds should be made equally rewarding or fun to play, to encourage diversity.
That’s fair.

But in this case for example, Blood builds are 4th on the Hardcore Rise of the Abyssal ladder.
That means it’s popular, yes, but it’s not fair to assume it is broken. It’s likely either more rewarding to play or simply more fun, not necessarily overpowered.

We shouldn’t jump to nerf every popular build.
If we did, the game would lose more players than it would ever gain.

I can go into more points of your arguments if you explain yourself further, rather than just writing plain statements that leave too much room for interpretation.

+1

What I'm gathering from this discussion is that GGG's current aversion to enabling Defensive Play is that they don't want their Boss Hits to look like wet noodles.

Has PoE experimented with mechanics akin to Enrage-Timers? Basically, an encounter is designed to counter excessively-tanky/resilient/attrition-based builds by exponentially increasing the monsters stats as the fight progresses.

This same fiddling with stats could also be used to counter glass cannon/burst-DPS build by making certain Life Thresholds particularly resistant to repeated applications of the same damage source.

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LeFlesh#9979 a écrit :

What I'm gathering from this discussion is that GGG's current aversion to enabling Defensive Play is that they don't want their Boss Hits to look like wet noodles.

Has PoE experimented with mechanics akin to Enrage-Timers? Basically, an encounter is designed to counter excessively-tanky/resilient/attrition-based builds by exponentially increasing the monsters stats as the fight progresses.

This same fiddling with stats could also be used to counter glass cannon/burst-DPS build by making certain Life Thresholds particularly resistant to repeated applications of the same damage source.

Thats not at all what they do. They do more one shots because of this and because defense as a whole is crap everyone builds one shot damage.

Blood mage and other blood magic builds need crazy regen to even be able to cast spells. That is the discussion here. Most are not understanding that you get touched at the wrong moment as one and you die to anything. You can even kill your own character playing this style.

Yes the game is being balanced around top damage and top defense at the moment which is why instead of nerfing them and all mobs in the game, bosses included they should buff the low performers first and create a baseline. That is the entire argument summed up in simplest terms.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 a écrit :

Yes the game is being balanced around top damage and top defense at the moment which is why instead of nerfing them and all mobs in the game, bosses included they should buff the low performers first and create a baseline. That is the entire argument summed up in simplest terms.

+

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Soulsniper1313#7576 a écrit :

Thats not at all what they do.

Why not? If the current policy makes defences 'crap', why would the implementation of countermeasures that normalizes the rewards for balancing offences/defences be bad for the game?

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Kabajisan#2683 a écrit :

Firstly, you don’t really explain any of the statements you wrote:

Player economy

Build diversity

You just listed these without defining what you mean.
That leaves me having to guess your intended argument, and if I respond based on those guesses, you can later say I misunderstood — even though you never explained yourself to begin with.

It’s like me making a statement and saying:

“The math adds up, guys.”

“Every build has its strengths and weaknesses.”

Saying things like this can make you sound smart, but players who actually look deeper will realize you’re not explaining anything — just trying to sound authoritative without showing real understanding of game balance.

That's because I didn't think they were important enough to draw attention to, when the third point (PvE game balance) was the topic of discussion, and what I consider to be the most important. Remember, this was in response to you not understanding the need to give feedback that calls for nerfs in a PvE game. But here are the disambiguations:

- Player economy: If some builds are miles ahead of the competition, they will disproportionately dominate the player trade economy. And this is how the PvE element affects the interaction between players.

- Build diversity: If there are only a limited number of builds that can compete on that market, and with the balance of the monsters (see point 3) then build diversity shrinks. This is part of a broader problem with how multiplicative scaling works, and how exponential power increases render more builds non-viable when the game needs to be balanced with the stronger builds in mind.

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Kabajisan#2683 a écrit :

Now, about your “10 million damage” thought experiment:

That’s the only part of your reply that actually contributes to the discussion.

It’s true that builds dominating the scene should be looked at for balance — or that other builds should be made equally rewarding or fun to play, to encourage diversity.
That’s fair.

But in this case for example, Blood builds are 4th on the Hardcore Rise of the Abyssal ladder.
That means it’s popular, yes, but it’s not fair to assume it is broken. It’s likely either more rewarding to play or simply more fun, not necessarily overpowered.

We shouldn’t jump to nerf every popular build.
If we did, the game would lose more players than it would ever gain.

I can go into more points of your arguments if you explain yourself further, rather than just writing plain statements that leave too much room for interpretation.

You started off by making a generalized statement about not understanding nerfs in a PvE game, and now switched to arguing that the Blood Mage isn't broken. The thought experiment is only to convey why nerfs are sometimes necessary.