What happened to Engaging Combat? Video Feedback.

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IonSugeRau1#1069 a écrit :

Streamers don't make half of the player base.
"there are no challenges left in PoE1" Sure there were, all the endgame bosses weren't there from the start, what are you talking about?

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cowmoo275#3095 a écrit :

I feel like I need to say this again because I see another 3 pages of this crap:

SCALING enemies: density, hp, attack, whatever.

Doesn't work. It's been tried, its been done. It makes NO difference in "meaningful combat". The only thing accomplished by that is a temporary slowdown in progress. A monster (besides bosses) that now hits a crapton harder and soaks a ton more damage is nothing more than a meatsack. It exists only to "artificially" slow progress and band-aid issues such as power creep. These are NOT solutions to the problem.

Why?

Because the combat remains the same. The game remains the same. The skills remain the same. The goals remain the same.

They can tweak the numbers all they want: they've done it EVERY SINGLE LEAGUE since 1.0 in PoE. But tweaking numbers doesn't change the structure of the game.


At best, number tweaks will slow the game and combat down reasonably for a few leagues at most. But at worst, and far more likely, all it will accomplish is slow everything in the game down to a complete slog which will alienate even the people who are asking for it. Because you'll realize shortly after running into a few packs of enemies that now take 10x longer to kill that.....nothing has actually changed, it merely takes you 10x longer.

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cowmoo275#3095 a écrit :

I only quoted this small bit of your response because this is how our whole conversation has been going back and forth...You did not understand ANY of what I wrote, or deliberately didn't take the time to digest it.

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cowmoo275#3095 a écrit :

2) I said there are no more challenges....for the players that keep coming back time and time again. The supporters of the game. The ones that will be here 5 years / 10 years from now. The ones that have already decided that they LIKE the game and haven't thrown it out in favor of Dark Souls or some other game that gives them something different. The new content is a challenge the first few times you do it, generally within a single league. But once you learn the mechanic, it stops being a challenge. Why am I still playing 18000 hours later? What about many of the players here on this forum? What about you, perhaps? Because it is most certainly NOT the Shaper suddenly being a challenge again after a decade...People come back league after league, not because of a sudden new challenge within the game, but because they 1) want to build a new character or 2) build the same character and go through the SAME motions that gave them such a fun experience the last time they did it. And then there are many players that build the same build league after league, year after year, and never get tired of it. Someone like PoHX and rf. They like the game itself. It is the LOOP that attracts and keeps them.

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cowmoo275#3095 a écrit :

Spoiler

What happens when you reduce density? You end up with long periods of times where you just...walk. D4 was a great example.

What happens when you increase density? You end up swarmed to the point of only 1 of 2 viable options are open to you: go as big AoE as possible, or build a tank capable of simply never dying. There is no middle ground. A good example of this is when we were unable to dodge roll through enemies and simply got swarmed all over the place.


What happens when you reduce monster hp? Most systems in the game lose all meaning.

What happens when you increase monster hp? Fights take a lot longer. If that were all it took to offer meaningful combat, it could have been done in PoE 1 many many many times over the years.


What happens when you increase monster attack? Defenses stop mattering and the game becomes one of the most hated aspects of PoE1: non-stop one shots that are damn near undetectable or defensible.

What happens when you decrease monster attack? Again, defenses stop mattering but this time for the opposite reason.


All these play a role in SUPPORTING a system that offers engaging and meaningful combat, but they don't CAUSE or CREATE it. That comes down to foundational design: look at bosses. A boss fight can be more engaging if it suddenly has 10x more health...because it also has the design of a "special encounter", with many different phases and attacks and patterns that SHOULD keep it interesting. But even here: too much or too little and everything about the boss becomes a drag.

But, and this is key, EVERY ENCOUNTER simply cannot be a boss. They play a role in the game, but fodder mobs ALSO play a role in the game. And those roles are defined BECAUSE of the foundational aspects that make up the game loop and universal goals that NO ONE can deny about the game. For PoE, those universal goals include: grinding for gear, completing content of some kind, building a viable, powerful character, as well as feeling growth.

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Dr_Mayhem22#0135 a écrit :

They're never going to have engaging combat in this game. GGG tried a bit at first, but the whales who spend all their money on POE 1 microtransactions prefer to play a spreadsheet to a video game.

This game isn't made for you, or for me, or for the majority of people who play it. Skins are $40 - that's not an amount of money most people spend on a single cosmetic. This game is made for those people - the small pool of whales that funds all of GGG's development. If those whales want more POE 1 spreadsheet numbers combat, that's what they'll get.

Sucks because the core of the game is so good, just abandoned in favor of "numbers numbers, brrr, map nuke" type combat.

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cowmoo275#3095 a écrit :

What happens when you reduce density? You end up with long periods of times where you just...walk. D4 was a great example.

What happens when you increase density? You end up swarmed to the point of only 1 of 2 viable options are open to you: go as big AoE as possible, or build a tank capable of simply never dying. There is no middle ground. A good example of this is when we were unable to dodge roll through enemies and simply got swarmed all over the place.


What happens when you reduce monster hp? Most systems in the game lose all meaning.

What happens when you increase monster hp? Fights take a lot longer. If that were all it took to offer meaningful combat, it could have been done in PoE 1 many many many times over the years.


What happens when you increase monster attack? Defenses stop mattering and the game becomes one of the most hated aspects of PoE1: non-stop one shots that are damn near undetectable or defensible.

What happens when you decrease monster attack? Again, defenses stop mattering but this time for the opposite reason.


All these play a role in SUPPORTING a system that offers engaging and meaningful combat, but they don't CAUSE or CREATE it. That comes down to foundational design: look at bosses. A boss fight can be more engaging if it suddenly has 10x more health...because it also has the design of a "special encounter", with many different phases and attacks and patterns that SHOULD keep it interesting. But even here: too much or too little and everything about the boss becomes a drag.

But, and this is key, EVERY ENCOUNTER simply cannot be a boss. They play a role in the game, but fodder mobs ALSO play a role in the game. And those roles are defined BECAUSE of the foundational aspects that make up the game loop and universal goals that NO ONE can deny about the game. For PoE, those universal goals include: grinding for gear, completing content of some kind, building a viable, powerful character, as well as feeling growth.

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IonSugeRau1#1069 a écrit :

Of course you did, why would you address the big stuff.. better go for the fluff, no?


Really now? So if GGG completely abandoned any future plans for new content in PoE1 and only offered league restarts every 4 months without any new content or challenges, you'd still play the game? Now that's a devoted fan if I've ever heard one!