Merchant tab is NOT an upgrade.

"

MathiasSoul#7397 a écrit :

As well, while I won't be engaging with Innuendo anymore,

I do want to give credit to Devourer on this one. Defending oneself from the No True Scotsman style rhetoric of "If you're not all in, you MUST be all out" from someone who argues from a place of ego is very mentally taxing and you did a great job affirming your position clearly.

For new readers to this post, I encourage you to simply fact check the information provided here if you can and come to your own conclusion, while the conversation itself was quite volatile on one side, it's still educational on consumer ethics and the questions you ought to be asking yourself before making a purchase.

Cheers, all!

"

Dwhym#5366 a écrit :

"

MathiasSoul#7397 a écrit :

As well, while I won't be engaging with Innuendo anymore,

I do want to give credit to Devourer on this one. Defending oneself from the No True Scotsman style rhetoric of "If you're not all in, you MUST be all out" from someone who argues from a place of ego is very mentally taxing and you did a great job affirming your position clearly.

For new readers to this post, I encourage you to simply fact check the information provided here if you can and come to your own conclusion, while the conversation itself was quite volatile on one side, it's still educational on consumer ethics and the questions you ought to be asking yourself before making a purchase.

Cheers, all!

While I disagree with Innuendos hostile rhetoric you weren't far from his volatility. It seems like you also had a target or even two in mind.

On multiple occasions your statements about the GGG not providing certain information during the "upgrade" process and thus being "unethical" are patently false. I don't want to repeat myself but if you want you can read my earlier posts where I directly quote the warnings and instructions that are clearly provided by GGG during the conversion process. Or you could enter the Merchant's Tab Upgrade menu and read them yourself where they were present from at least the 3rd day (most likely from the day 1 but I did not see it with my own eyes so I have no way of confirming it) of the patch launch and are still there as of me posting this message.

While I don't think that defending DevourerAdol from personal attacks is a bad thing (especially if done in a measured manner) I believe that throwing unsubstantiated accusations at the very entity he is trying to appeal to ultimately distorts his message. In my opinion it is detrimental to his cause and may attract even more unwanted engagement.

I understand that in the heat of the moment during a vigorous discussion things can become blurry but it is important to reflect and possibly retract wrong statements.

The warnings and information was there and even in a proper location. It was not perfect an missed a few niche details (and DevourerAdol is correct in pointing those out) but it was pretty clear on the most major "complaints" that people are having. It also was not so unclear or misleading to the point of suspecting unethical practices.
Still it was clearly not enough since multiple people did make a mistake and felt they were not warned enough so GGG should make some adjustments to the process but listing false complaints can only make it harder/less relevant to them.

"

DevourerAdol#4490 a écrit :

I will say this, my skepticism is not born from GGG's previous behavior, more so seeing a lot of other companies going down that type of path, Blizzard, Bethesda etc.

My faith in GGG is pretty much at the same level as I had for Blizzard at around the early 2000's. Here's hoping and believing they won't go down the same path :)

"

PyleWarlord#7248 a écrit :

didn't even read the thread but this is the best thing in poe since atlas tree

i have 0 public tabs and probably never use that function again.

just play couple of hours and then let Agne do her magic

"

Dwhym#5366 a écrit :

"

MathiasSoul#7397 a écrit :

As well, while I won't be engaging with Innuendo anymore,

I do want to give credit to Devourer on this one. Defending oneself from the No True Scotsman style rhetoric of "If you're not all in, you MUST be all out" from someone who argues from a place of ego is very mentally taxing and you did a great job affirming your position clearly.

For new readers to this post, I encourage you to simply fact check the information provided here if you can and come to your own conclusion, while the conversation itself was quite volatile on one side, it's still educational on consumer ethics and the questions you ought to be asking yourself before making a purchase.

Cheers, all!

While I disagree with Innuendos hostile rhetoric you weren't far from his volatility. It seems like you also had a target or even two in mind.

On multiple occasions your statements about the GGG not providing certain information during the "upgrade" process and thus being "unethical" are patently false. I don't want to repeat myself but if you want you can read my earlier posts where I directly quote the warnings and instructions that are clearly provided by GGG during the conversion process. Or you could enter the Merchant's Tab Upgrade menu and read them yourself where they were present from at least the 3rd day (most likely from the day 1 but I did not see it with my own eyes so I have no way of confirming it) of the patch launch and are still there as of me posting this message.

While I don't think that defending DevourerAdol from personal attacks is a bad thing (especially if done in a measured manner) I believe that throwing unsubstantiated accusations at the very entity he is trying to appeal to ultimately distorts his message. In my opinion it is detrimental to his cause and may attract even more unwanted engagement.

I understand that in the heat of the moment during a vigorous discussion things can become blurry but it is important to reflect and possibly retract wrong statements.

The warnings and information was there and even in a proper location. It was not perfect an missed a few niche details (and DevourerAdol is correct in pointing those out) but it was pretty clear on the most major "complaints" that people are having. It also was not so unclear or misleading to the point of suspecting unethical practices.
Still it was clearly not enough since multiple people did make a mistake and felt they were not warned enough so GGG should make some adjustments to the process but listing false complaints can only make it harder/less relevant to them.

"

MathiasSoul#7397 a écrit :

I hadn't been on the forums when you mentioned this, but since it's been bumped while I'm currently active, I'll 100% address this.

I can appreciate what you're saying, but I do want to note that I'm actually very particular with my words.

In your statement, you mention that I'm making unsubstantiated statements (Insofar as the context is suggesting, but I'm happy to listen to further clarification), and/or even false complaints, as well as claiming that I state their practice as "Unethical" explicitly. So I wanted to clear that up. In my message, I state:

"The similarity to this for me as a seller of digital merchandise would be that if I said in my Discord that Poiyomi Pro is included on my avatars and costs $15. Yes the information is out there, but it's not present in its most necessary and upfront place. The shop where it's purchased from.

It is not the consumer's responsibility to find out information like the above on their own, that is not good ethics overall EVEN IF they did include some strong ethical points, there is room for improvement and that is really quite indisputable considering what they missed and the financial damages that can result from players converting every tab they own, purchasing a hideout in preparation of something that wasn't going to happen due to an implied statement instead of a clear one, purchasing premium QUAD tabs when their exclusion was left out."

What this means, and you can draw this back to my post about ethical marketing (Which I used my job as reference for perspective for), is that while what they are doing isn't completely unethical, it is not what is or was most ethical.

This is why I say specifically that it is not GOOD ethics. There are spectrums to these sorts of things. It can still be moderately ethical, which doesn't make it UNETHICAL, but things can be void of being predatory while still not being "Good", like how a 6/10 rating isn't "Bad".

Hopefully that clears my position up a bit

"

GGG a écrit :

Premium Stash Tabs purchased before the release of 0.3.0 can be upgraded to Merchant's Tabs for free. Please note that this upgrade is permanent, cannot be undone, and is unable to be used on upgrades to the initial four Stash Tabs on an account.

Merchant's Tabs can be used to sell your items to other players without being present for the sale. These are not regular Stash Tabs, and are not accessible at your Stash. Find Ange in Kingsmarch to establish a hideout, then begin managing your shop and selling your items.

Keep in mind that stash tabs are shared across your account. Once upgraded, a tab will no longer be accessible in Path of Exile 1 until Merchant's Tabs are supported there. Items stored in an upgraded tab will remain in a remove-only version of the original Premium Stash Tab.

"

MathiasSoul#7397 a écrit :

To address the PoE1 bit "It will be" doesn't make it any (Edit here -> "less", what I meant to say was "More") convenient for the players of "Right now" who engage in Standard or Mercenary league still, it's still a valid complaint and a valid request for a consumer protective approach to be looked into. Simple warnings on conversion purchase would do just fine and eliminate fault from GGG's end.

"

GGG a écrit :

Keep in mind that stash tabs are shared across your account. Once upgraded, a tab will no longer be accessible in Path of Exile 1 until Merchant's Tabs are supported there. Items stored in an upgraded tab will remain in a remove-only version of the original Premium Stash Tab.

"

MathiasSoul#7397 a écrit :

However they do not like the terminology of "Upgrade" being used to encourage sales PAIRED WITH lack of UPFRONT information provided by the seller. In OP's case, they were led to a false conclusion due to this omission of information and ended up "Overspending" as a result.

"

MathiasSoul#7397 a écrit :

What they didn't do and why it wasn't ethical:

- No warnings on purchase confirmation - When a player purchases a merchant tab, there is no warning about the effects this will actually have. No mention of the tab's limitations, or its progression locked availability.

- No clarity that if you already have a hideout, Ange and the Merchant Tabs still cannot be utilised. - The progression lock was only implied with the specific statement "You only need to have Ange in your hideout"

- No clarity on what would be detailed as "Currency items" - The listing of socketables and gems were not included in this FAQ section

- Made their warnings prominent and easy to find - Players must have gone to outside sources from the game and follow media to receive these warnings. No warnings were, or currently are in game about the effects of the Merchant Tab

- Did not provide sufficient consumer protections - There is nothing preventing players from converting every single tab they own (In cases of them only having Premium tabs, no quads, no league, no currency tabs) into merchant tabs, essentially removing every single bit of feasible storage they have from PoE1 AND PoE2's campaign on league start unless they spend extra money

"

Dwhym#5366 a écrit :

Here is a screenshot of Merchant's Tab Upgrade menu. Where maybe not 100% perfect but pretty clear explanation and warning is present in the most appropriate and direct place you could ever wish for it to be. Mind you that is not a cash shop because "the upgrade" is offered for free and is not a purchase. It is a change of service that can be accessed and opted in only by legacy users and cannot be purchased at all. I did not mention it before but GGG actually stands to lose money by providing this free "unethical" upgrade to people that already spent their money. It was only ever offered to people that already bought Premium Stash Tabs before the Merchant Tabs were introduced and could feel "cheated" by GGG with the release of an additional trading system for which they otherwise would have to buy a separate product in the actual cash shop. It was not a "time sensitive sale" designed to boost the sales. So in essence it was not a cash grab but the opposite of it. Your comparison has no logical merit to stand on. It was not a veiled sale and the information was there in front of the "customer" in the most proper place. Could they make it more readable by adding flashy formatting or some sort of captcha that would "force" the customer to read it through ? Yes, but that would be going above and beyond any reasonable expectation of "ethical" customer service. I personally think they should because some people did get too excited about the new system/league and missed the warnings but that would be just them doing something extra and not a requirement for an "ethical" practice.

In written form the warning and information that was always there directly right in front of anyone that was actually trying to make "the upgrade":

"

GGG a écrit :

Premium Stash Tabs purchased before the release of 0.3.0 can be upgraded to Merchant's Tabs for free. Please note that this upgrade is permanent, cannot be undone, and is unable to be used on upgrades to the initial four Stash Tabs on an account.

Merchant's Tabs can be used to sell your items to other players without being present for the sale. These are not regular Stash Tabs, and are not accessible at your Stash. Find Ange in Kingsmarch to establish a hideout, then begin managing your shop and selling your items.

Keep in mind that stash tabs are shared across your account. Once upgraded, a tab will no longer be accessible in Path of Exile 1 until Merchant's Tabs are supported there. Items stored in an upgraded tab will remain in a remove-only version of the original Premium Stash Tab.

"

MathiasSoul#7397 a écrit :

To address the PoE1 bit "It will be" doesn't make it any (Edit here -> "less", what I meant to say was "More") convenient for the players of "Right now" who engage in Standard or Mercenary league still, it's still a valid complaint and a valid request for a consumer protective approach to be looked into. Simple warnings on conversion purchase would do just fine and eliminate fault from GGG's end.

"

GGG a écrit :

Keep in mind that stash tabs are shared across your account. Once upgraded, a tab will no longer be accessible in Path of Exile 1 until Merchant's Tabs are supported there. Items stored in an upgraded tab will remain in a remove-only version of the original Premium Stash Tab.

It was the information right in the very upgrade menu. The only way to get confused about it would be not reading it at all.

"

MathiasSoul#7397 a écrit :

However they do not like the terminology of "Upgrade" being used to encourage sales PAIRED WITH lack of UPFRONT information provided by the seller. In OP's case, they were led to a false conclusion due to this omission of information and ended up "Overspending" as a result.

There was no urgent prelaunch sale designed to rush people to buy Premium Tabs and upgrade them to Merchant Tabs. You could only "modify" already made purchase so you wouldn't feel scammed after additional trade system was introduced and people moved to use it leaving you with "useless" already paid for Premium Tabs. You can buy Merchant Tabs straight out of the shop and never upgrade any Premium Tabs. It was just an extra free option. Basically all information was UPFRONT provided by the GGG. The terminology of "upgrade" is purely a matter of opinion. If for DevourerAdol it does not feel like an upgrade then it is not an upgrade for him but that does not mean if someone calls it an upgrade they are wrong and/or deceitful.

"

MathiasSoul#7397 a écrit :

What they didn't do and why it wasn't ethical:

- No warnings on purchase confirmation - When a player purchases a merchant tab, there is no warning about the effects this will actually have. No mention of the tab's limitations, or its progression locked availability.

- No clarity that if you already have a hideout, Ange and the Merchant Tabs still cannot be utilised. - The progression lock was only implied with the specific statement "You only need to have Ange in your hideout"

- No clarity on what would be detailed as "Currency items" - The listing of socketables and gems were not included in this FAQ section

- Made their warnings prominent and easy to find - Players must have gone to outside sources from the game and follow media to receive these warnings. No warnings were, or currently are in game about the effects of the Merchant Tab

- Did not provide sufficient consumer protections - There is nothing preventing players from converting every single tab they own (In cases of them only having Premium tabs, no quads, no league, no currency tabs) into merchant tabs, essentially removing every single bit of feasible storage they have from PoE1 AND PoE2's campaign on league start unless they spend extra money

Those points have no merit and some are just straight up false.

"No warnings on purchase confirmation", "No clarity that if you already have a hideout"
There is a clear warning about what the "upgrade" (and not the purchase) of a merchant tab actually does about its limitations and progression locked availability. Could they state you had to reach 4th act instead of saying you need to reach Kingsmarch ? Yes but since the entire "upgrade" was specifically targeting players that made purchases and most likely played before the 0.3 patch there was no need to point out Kingmarch is the new Act and any new player wouldn't have the frame of reference to what Act 4 means anyway. The specific was "Find Ange in Kingsmarch to establish a hideout, then begin managing your shop and selling your items." right after "These are not regular Stash Tabs, and are not accessible at your Stash." Doesn't take a lot to understand that you need to unlock a hideout with Ange NPC in a Kingsmarch location of the game to use the new system that otherwise is not accessible at your Stash.

"No clarity on what would be detailed as "Currency items""
The only point that could sound reasonable at first glance is about "currency items" but if you actually think about it you can realize that you sell those things at the very same NPC with a different dedicated (and mostly better) system so it becomes so inconsequential to the point of sounding forced and incredibly nitpicky.

"Made their warnings prominent and easy to find"
The only place players had to go to read the very prominent warning and explanation right in the middle of their screen was the very Merchant's Tab Upgrade page they had to use to make the change.

"Did not provide sufficient consumer protections"
There was only one theoretical scenario where players could "essentially remove every storage they have" and it was also impossible to happen because of the implementation limitation (You literally could not turn all your stash tabs into Merchant Tabs). That of course after a lengthy warning and mandatory [YES/NO] confirmation at every tab upgrade.

I think that is enough to make a point.