Why not use bouns experience instead of penalty?

"

Lasis#7836 a écrit :

Having an experience penalty isn't a design flaw, it's just the cause of frustration.

If something causes frustration, then it's a design flaw.

Other issues are discussed in other topics. But if you think that with a perfect balance and correct mistakes, players will gladly accept the penalty for death - expand the idea.

To topic

I like the idea as much as it is:

- Improve the player's expectation
- Doesn't change anything else

So technically this is a Parreto optimal solution, and there is no reason not to take it (as long as you haven't introduced a party that will suffer from it, of course).

You just need to understand what exactly will happen.

1.
Let's say I'm not dying on map 70. And I get 100 experience points.
Let's say I'm dying on map 80. And I get the same 100 exp, since there is no boost.

Now the reward / risk has dropped and I don't have to go to 80. I'll go to 70. It will take me some time to get back the lost bonuses. This will be quite obvious, and players will probably make such decisions, whereas in the current version of the game nothing pushes for this. The player is also likely to be upset.

This is the behavior of a rational player. The problem is that the player is not rational (this was awarded the Nobel Prize in Economics), and it is interesting to see the real behavior.

2.
The boost should be linked to the experience. That is, after getting N experience points, you get an acceleration to get the next N experience points. Bosses are not everywhere, monsters are strong and weak, a lot and a little. And the experience is unified.

3.
The relationship must be non-linear. Dropping the bonus to 0 will deprive the player of fuel. He'll just stop playing. Ideally, the player should never fall to 0, and stay on it for a minimum amount of time.
That is, the calculation of the optimum should take place somewhere from 60% of the bonus. This is again positive expectation management.

This is actually a great idea, OP.

"

juansino#6005 a écrit :

"

MagosX#1099 a écrit :

Because now you need to be good and play smart to reach 100. With no death penalty, everyone can reach 100, given enough time...

That's the problem. Not everyone has time. Some mostly play on their free time with friends to take some steam off. They run maps to boost or hunt endgame bosses together. You must also consider that there are those who play for accomplishment like reaching 100, but if reaching that said level is too taxing they might drop out early and just call it quits. Don't get me wrong, death penalty is good in a way that it makes you cautious. I too, select my maps and modifiers based on what my character can handle if not running with friends and even more careful with animation, audio cues and ground effects during boss fights, but sometimes there are one shots you don't know where it came from and as someone posted in another thread we could use a combat log or death recap to let us know what really happend. Other than that I agree with previous a commenter about bonus xp if you complete certain maps without dying or whatever challenge it may present to your character or build. Something like a dynamic penalty and reward system.

Not having time isn't a good argument for anything. This game, isn't built for people who have 40 hrs a month to accomplish everything the game has to offer. And anything that adapts the game in that direction wiuld most likely ruin the game. Especially when we're talking about reaching level 100 which is mostly a vanity goal.

I've played poe for years and never reached level 100, but i've experienced most the first game has to offer. If i had even more time on my hands i might've hit more vanity goals and gotten even better sure, but what does ir matter when the experience i've had just playing and progressing at my own pace has felt good.

Making games for people where every goal is attainable for every single person no matter the time/effort investment is how you make bad games, thats how you get d4 with 0 complexity, so people can't mess up and also have no choices.

People need to get into their heads that some games/devs/companies have a vision of what they want to do/be. Thise goals not being compatible with some players isn't a failure of the company or product. How they execute on their vision is what matters. Obviously they need some level of monetary success, but if thats achieved by giving in to every demand of all the consumers you end up with a bad product.

Its kind of a rambly reaponse, but hope people understand what i'm trying to say

Shouldnt the majority of players be expected to reach l00 in a seasonal game? i mean the season resets so whats the problem?
You max level min max as much as you enjoy doing it and go again next time.

It should take time investment but it should be reasonably achieveable and infact a goal for players.

Perhaps it being so difficult is really masking the fact that the endgame is severely lacking and the idea of max leveling and them min maxing you character would reveal that fact

As for the XP bonus for not dying. well its better than nothing but still encourages/rewards safe boring play.
how about just letting the player decide how they want to play without heinious antiquated punishments if the build/content they try doesnt work out and they... OMG say ...die

"

qds19870725#5314 a écrit :

I see many people cry for death penalty,so why dev not concider use bouns instead of penalty?
Like cutdown base experience and if you finish a map that not died,you will get a stackable buff with max stack for exp gain,clear it when you died.

It looks more positive than penalty.

bruh, just farm some omens if you dont like penalty from deaths.

"

MagosX#1099 a écrit :

Because now you need to be good and play smart to reach 100.

What you need most to reach 100 is NO LIFE.

"

iliathaX#7359 a écrit :

"

GIBAS1996#4295 a écrit :

What is wrong with reaching level 100?

Whats wrong with not reaching level 100 ?

Same guys would come and complain again that there is nothing else to do in the game lol

Why does everybody has to get everything with the smallest amount of investments possible ? Can`t you enjoy a game otherwise ? Company is called GRINDING Gear Games btw. Not COME AND GET EVERYTHING YOU WANT WITHIN 15 MIN GAMES :D

Perfect Example for one of the many Reasons, why the Player Numbers are hitting ground bottom.
You bring up a Suggestion in the official Forum, and get pounded.
The tide is turning slowly, if you would have brought this Topic in December 2024 you would have 10 Pages full of Toxic "Old Schoolers" , for why this Idea is absolutly stupid and you should GitGud.
But even today, where the Race to Rockbottom is gaining even more Speed, some People want to keep some of the greatest Bummers for Motivation to stick around.
GGG brought themselves into a very bad Postition, where they can do 2 Things: Drop the outdated XP loss and loose a lot of the remaining Core Gamers (which are by far not so many, like they believe themselves, they are), or keep the Mechanic, and bounce of a metric Ton of New Players.
Such a Change in the Hype Time would have not hurt so much, but now, where the Audience is dwindling, its a Big Deal, but mark my Words, XP loss in the Way it works now, will not go live with official Release.

+1, however the devs seem to be very stubborn on making PoE2 a punishment game for those that get motivated by getting beaten up. For me, the game is really fun during the campaign, where there are no punishments, only learning. And then I suddenly jump over to endgame and there's only misery there - complete lack of any useful item upgrades, sluggish progress through the league mechanics to get to the league bosses and overtuned monster skills disregarding all player investment in defenses. And putting all those severe punishments for death on top of that is really depressing. Personally, I play games to feel good, so I really hope the devs will change their mindset and make PoE2 much more focused on rewarding the player for suceeding, rather than punishing for losing.

However I think it's not just a design decision that can be easily changed, because it's more a reflection of who the devs are as gamers. I'm not so sure if the devs are going to abandon a design philosophy they seem to enjoy. If they don't address the xp loss or 1 portal maps mechanics in the upcoming patch I think they'll never do.

"

Radonegsky#6656 a écrit :

"

Lasis#7836 a écrit :

Having an experience penalty isn't a design flaw, it's just the cause of frustration.

If something causes frustration, then it's a design flaw.

What kind of line of thinking is that? Why do you think people play souls games, this is the dumbest argument I've heard this year. If you want zero frustration play cookie clicker or something.

XP loss is what stings you, but that doesn't make it a design issue. You guys are jumping through hoops when it comes to this XP loss thing and it's not even close to being a fundamental issue. If they were to fix the problems I mentioned then you have effectively ran out of reasons to blame the game on why you aren't reaching lvl 100, and whoever told you to git gud is 100% right.

"

Lasis#7836 a écrit :

...Why do you think people play souls games,

Why do people do BDSM? Absolutely negative experience, but perceived positively. In Soul games, people like punishment, and that's why they play it. No one comes to them for an easy game. Thus, the developer managed to meet the player's expectations despite the constant punishment. And no frustration.

It's just that punishment doesn't equal frustration. The game can and should punish simply because it's the contrast that keeps everything going. Do you spend mana as a punishment? Yes. Does it annoy you? - no. Is it a punishment to have all your mana drained? Yes. Is it annoying? - probably yes.

The designer must take into account the expectations of the target audience. If you are the target audience and you are disappointed, then something is wrong. You may be disappointed if the game also consisted of only positive moments (although they would not be positive then, since they are such only in comparison).

It's not about punishment, it's about frustration. And the designer should avoid it.

"

Lasis#7836 a écrit :

If they were to fix the problems I mentioned

That is, the problem, as I said, is not in punishment, but in frustration.