Diablo 2 Creator David Brevik finds modern APRGs unengaging and 'kind of silly'

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KubaLy#4534 a écrit :

I consider D2 to be the superior game, I've played it since release. However I think it's a zoom fest, with very fast leveling progression (and very "taxi" friendly), with similar monster density (like Cow Level for example) and just as much loot you don't care about. If Brevik was talking about D2 having slower pace, more meaningful progression and less density - he lied.

David also then went on to work on Hellgate London and Marvel Heroes, neither of which were slow games, both of which had tons of nonsense loot.

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KubaLy#4534 a écrit :

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Yohak#7513 a écrit :

I so loved D1 & D2 and I soooo agree with David Brevik that mass mowing swath of monster to litter screen of stuff which one cant even find out what it is not a cool experience.

And its not only that what the fun hauling that litter again and again to multiple vendors go gain meaningless stuff again?

Simply all my gametime I am handling stuff that should engage me and be fun its that simple.

Check out David Brevik pod cast at video gamer he so nails it what APRGs fail to deliver this includes Diablo 4.

I consider D2 to be the superior game, I've played it since release. However I think it's a zoom fest, with very fast leveling progression (and very "taxi" friendly), with similar monster density (like Cow Level for example) and just as much loot you don't care about. If Brevik was talking about D2 having slower pace, more meaningful progression and less density - he lied.

A SOJ or two in, and bosses will go down as quick as trash mobs. Iron Maiden + Blood Golem = invulnerability.

It's really just a rose tinted take from Brevik.

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The most wished feature for D3 back then was the campaign skip, because actually slowing progression and fighting against mobs is not that awesome in the players eyes.

Because campaign in D3 was bad in terms of combat. It simply was not fun. And thus it offered nothing. But in POE2 people like campaign - because the combat feels great only there. It is refreshingly new there for the genre. But unfortunately it ends too fast and game becomes boring faceless arpg among all other boring faceless arpgs.

[double post]

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Azimuthus#1135 a écrit :

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The most wished feature for D3 back then was the campaign skip, because actually slowing progression and fighting against mobs is not that awesome in the players eyes.

Because campaign in D3 was bad in terms of combat. It simply was not fun. And thus it offered nothing. But in POE2 people like campaign - because the combat feels great only there. It is refreshingly new there for the genre. But unfortunately it ends too fast and game becomes boring faceless arpg among all other boring faceless arpgs.

Well maybe wait for act 4-6 but i think the main problem is power progression, because the player wants there to be one. So if you always need to fight like in act 1 it gets boring. You can already have this in a souls game, 3rd person. And this type of power progression was true for D1 and D2 as well. So lets say this is a core feature of Arpgs.

To D3: it was not fun? Especially on the first releases in the first hours is was actually fun. It just didn't scale in anyway through the difficulties with hell being a literal hell without RMTing gear.
After many patches and RoS it got to the point were poe1 was 2015 before the big nerf. You mowed down everything so the players wanted even faster leveling and blizzard obliged. that's all there is to it.

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So if you always need to fight like in act 1 it gets boring.

It does not if you have different enemies to fight with. In Diablo 1 when you play a warrior you have literally only 1 skill: sword swing. That's it. Nothing else from start to the end. And yet game feels always different as you progress through levels - because monsters and layouts are designed brilliantly.

However, if you kill everything with 1shot AOEs (or even 1shot swings) - monsters mean nothing, there is no challenge, game becomes shallow.

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To D3: it was not fun? Especially on the first releases in the first hours is was actually fun.

Brevik was talking about "2 hours and campaign is done" thing. Obviously he meant what D3 had become after ROS.

Now that damn near every game genre has adopted RPG elements. ARPGs have to work extra hard on the RPG part or they might as well just be called Isometric Actions Games.

An RPG's strongest tool is immersion. A slower pace naturally allows immersion to work.

Also keep in mind the Schaefer brothers were/are the loot goblins. You can even see it in how they talked about their games at Exilecon. Travis and one of them actually go into how they're both dialog skippers. David is more into the systems at play and doesn't like over emphasis on loot.

He even mentioned he liked the opposite of what Marvel Heroes did.

"Brevik explains that the fun “actually isn’t getting to the end, it’s the journey”."

I'd take this more of an issue with PoE2 endgame, not the powerfantasque clear speeds, which surely contributes to it currently, but they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Let say there were no after death effects, no volatile projectiles, no poison ground effects nor rares with deadly modifiers etc. You have a build that instantly clears your screen. What's the gameplay then? You walk through the map and loot items while pressing one or two buttons. Now you at least have to engage with the things I mentioned. There's elements that makes you pay attention. Engagement value is more than zero. That's all that matters and that can be improved on. It's not about the speed alone.

(Silly idea that came to mind for the sake of an example while writing this: what if by killing certain amount of mobs in short enough time they spawn a stronger mob, if you don't have the clearspeed you don't have to engage with this, but if you have the clearspeed you are presented with a challenge.)

Now since PoE2 is EA there's not that many checkpoints or goalposts in the endgame. I believe the devs talked about this a bit as well. "The journey" is lacking and that is understandable. It definately will get improved on.

I also take the bossfights part of said journey. Currently Pinncale encounters etc. behave as gear/build checks. Not skill checks. They are no different from juiced maps. You either kill them in seconds or risk losing the encounter. This is bad design if GGG actually wants PoE2s philosophy to have any resemblance with soulslikes. If there's place for meaningful combat in PoE2 it is the bossfights and they work quite well in the campaign, but take a different turn in the endgame. I think it's better powerfantasy if I struggle on a boss for an hour on my first try and come back way later and smoke it in seconds this time. That's a journey while killing a boss tens of times in seconds from the get go is as if standing still.

Map clearing doesn't need to be super methodical, every movement matters -like combat as long as it is somewhat engaging and there are goalposts on the way to work towards densely enough. I just hope they can balance bossfights with the other content in a way they actually have a purpose outside of mobs that drop cool loot.