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If every time something goes wrong, you just say 'It’s your fault,' you’re ignoring the broader issue of game design. Some players might not mind the high stakes, but for others, it’s a frustrating experience that could easily be addressed by tweaking how failure impacts the player’s progression.
It's not about 'blaming' players for not being perfect; it’s about creating an environment where failure is a learning opportunity, not just a setback that makes people feel like they're being punished for every minor mistake. So, when you say 'It’s your fault,' it’s almost like you're shifting the blame onto the player, without recognizing that the design itself can sometimes create a cycle of frustration rather than growth.
And yet the number of peopole who complain about One Portal by saying " I am an Elite Golden God of gaming, I have LITERALLY NEVER died to anything in Path of Exile except bullshit instant one-shots Nostradamus couldn't see coming! I don't deserve to lose my map because of GGG's dogshit balance!" is far, far, far greater than anyone arguing your point of constant stress.
Anyone who makes such an argument is a bullshitting blowhard that has no business talking on the Internet. You (generic 'you the audience', not Z3ro specifically) are not that fucking guy. You know GOOD GODDAMN WELL what killed you, it was not an Instant Bullshit One-Shot, and arguing that your status as an Elite Golden God of Gaming needs respecting by the game design is horse hockey.
It honestly reminds me of something I remember one of the Japanese devs of Tekken saying, when the latest Tekken came out. Modern fighting games and other competitive games which pit a single player against another single player are way less popular than they used to be because modern gamers have been trained by high-profile team games to blame anyone but themselves for their failures. It's always "The Team's Fault" you lost in those games, never your own, but when you win it's clearly because you yourself performed amazingly. It's apparently a real thing in development now - players in games without a 'Team' to insulate their egos have to eat the blame for their losses themselves and modern players have decided they don't like the taste of it.
It's another reason why Soulslikes get memed on in the broader gaming community - a good Soulslike makes it agonizingly clear that when you go down it's your own bleedin' fault, and there's a whole generation of modern gamers that cannot tolerate the taste of their own failures. They will blame everything prior to acknowledging that they biffed it, and there's nothing you can do to stop them.
Give those people six portals and when they burn up an entire level, drop back down a level, and fail to clear their six-portal map they will blame Bad Mob Balance for the problem just as much as they blame Bad Mob Balance for their deaths in One Portal; they'll just lose way more than if the game had cut them off after a single biff. Failure will never be "a learning experience" for those players because they categorically refuse to learn.
Now, I take your point about constant stress. That is literally the first time I've ever seen a valid argument against One Portal; that some players are wound too tight by the tension of knowing a single biff can cost them their waystone and that tension bleeds much of the fun out of the game. That could use a solve, but again - blowing up the entire PoE2 endgame and replacing it wholesale with PoE1's vastly inferior endgame is not a proper solve. There needs to be stakes for failure, and six portals is basically the same as infinite portals. I honestly like Jonathan's idea of being able to expend an additional Waystone to retry the map with all its mechanics and rewards intact, but I also understand the issue with people using that to manipulatively double (or more) their juicing on every single map they run by deliberately dying at the final critter and getting a free* retry.
I don't know what the proper solve is. I do know Six Portals fucking sucks. I love the One Portal system and the fact that it makes me play and fight like my existence actually matters instead of Betty Bigtits-ing my way around the place, but without the "whoops, your character's now gone forever" penalty of Hardcore. Sure, sometimes when I lose a map in a way I'm not fond of I'll put the game down for a while. That is perfectly okay. We're not Blizzard, who sees any possible moment of put-the-controller-down as a failure. Being dispirited by a moment of failure means you were invested in the hunt for success If failure doesn't hurt, then success was not worth achieving. That sense of success being worth achieving is so much stronger in PoE2 than it is in PoE1, and I'd be super upset to lose it.
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Posté par1453R#7804le 28 janv. 2025 10:24:10
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If every time something goes wrong, you just say 'It’s your fault,' you’re ignoring the broader issue of game design. Some players might not mind the high stakes, but for others, it’s a frustrating experience that could easily be addressed by tweaking how failure impacts the player’s progression.
It's not about 'blaming' players for not being perfect; it’s about creating an environment where failure is a learning opportunity, not just a setback that makes people feel like they're being punished for every minor mistake. So, when you say 'It’s your fault,' it’s almost like you're shifting the blame onto the player, without recognizing that the design itself can sometimes create a cycle of frustration rather than growth.
And yet the number of peopole who complain about One Portal by saying " I am an Elite Golden God of gaming, I have LITERALLY NEVER died to anything in Path of Exile except bullshit instant one-shots Nostradamus couldn't see coming! I don't deserve to lose my map because of GGG's dogshit balance!" is far, far, far greater than anyone arguing your point of constant stress.
Anyone who makes such an argument is a bullshitting blowhard that has no business talking on the Internet. You (generic 'you the audience', not Z3ro specifically) are not that fucking guy. You know GOOD GODDAMN WELL what killed you, it was not an Instant Bullshit One-Shot, and arguing that your status as an Elite Golden God of Gaming needs respecting by the game design is horse hockey.
It honestly reminds me of something I remember one of the Japanese devs of Tekken saying, when the latest Tekken came out. Modern fighting games and other competitive games which pit a single player against another single player are way less popular than they used to be because modern gamers have been trained by high-profile team games to blame anyone but themselves for their failures. It's always "The Team's Fault" you lost in those games, never your own, but when you win it's clearly because you yourself performed amazingly. It's apparently a real thing in development now - players in games without a 'Team' to insulate their egos have to eat the blame for their losses themselves and modern players have decided they don't like the taste of it.
It's another reason why Soulslikes get memed on in the broader gaming community - a good Soulslike makes it agonizingly clear that when you go down it's your own bleedin' fault, and there's a whole generation of modern gamers that cannot tolerate the taste of their own failures. They will blame everything prior to acknowledging that they biffed it, and there's nothing you can do to stop them.
Give those people six portals and when they burn up an entire level, drop back down a level, and fail to clear their six-portal map they will blame Bad Mob Balance for the problem just as much as they blame Bad Mob Balance for their deaths in One Portal; they'll just lose way more than if the game had cut them off after a single biff. Failure will never be "a learning experience" for those players because they categorically refuse to learn.
Now, I take your point about constant stress. That is literally the first time I've ever seen a valid argument against One Portal; that some players are wound too tight by the tension of knowing a single biff can cost them their waystone and that tension bleeds much of the fun out of the game. That could use a solve, but again - blowing up the entire PoE2 endgame and replacing it wholesale with PoE1's vastly inferior endgame is not a proper solve. There needs to be stakes for failure, and six portals is basically the same as infinite portals. I honestly like Jonathan's idea of being able to expend an additional Waystone to retry the map with all its mechanics and rewards intact, but I also understand the issue with people using that to manipulatively double (or more) their juicing on every single map they run by deliberately dying at the final critter and getting a free* retry.
I don't know what the proper solve is. I do know Six Portals fucking sucks. I love the One Portal system and the fact that it makes me play and fight like my existence actually matters instead of Betty Bigtits-ing my way around the place, but without the "whoops, your character's now gone forever" penalty of Hardcore. Sure, sometimes when I lose a map in a way I'm not fond of I'll put the game down for a while. That is perfectly okay. We're not Blizzard, who sees any possible moment of put-the-controller-down as a failure. Being dispirited by a moment of failure means you were invested in the hunt for success If failure doesn't hurt, then success was not worth achieving. That sense of success being worth achieving is so much stronger in PoE2 than it is in PoE1, and I'd be super upset to lose it.
There is stakes for failure. It's the xp loss. One Portal is not needed. It was obviously poorly thought out as well since the devs already admitted the pinnacle bosses should have had six portals to begin with.
Dernière édition par StrykerxS77x#8221, le 28 janv. 2025 10:29:45
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If every time something goes wrong, you just say 'It’s your fault,' you’re ignoring the broader issue of game design. Some players might not mind the high stakes, but for others, it’s a frustrating experience that could easily be addressed by tweaking how failure impacts the player’s progression.
It's not about 'blaming' players for not being perfect; it’s about creating an environment where failure is a learning opportunity, not just a setback that makes people feel like they're being punished for every minor mistake. So, when you say 'It’s your fault,' it’s almost like you're shifting the blame onto the player, without recognizing that the design itself can sometimes create a cycle of frustration rather than growth.
And yet the number of peopole who complain about One Portal by saying " I am an Elite Golden God of gaming, I have LITERALLY NEVER died to anything in Path of Exile except bullshit instant one-shots Nostradamus couldn't see coming! I don't deserve to lose my map because of GGG's dogshit balance!" is far, far, far greater than anyone arguing your point of constant stress.
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It's the softcore league. Seriously, for what purpose could it possibly serve to frustrate so many players by being so punitive?
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That doesn't mean the vast majority of players have to be ok with so punitive a death penalty as we have right now in, once again, the god damned softcore league.
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how softcore league should not be punitive by its intended design (especially given PoE1's approach to Standard)
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This random spiking is the biggest reason I gave up on hardcore years ago and is a top three reason why one-attempt maps needs to go in standard/softcore.
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One-attempt runs counter to the intended design philosophy behind softcore leagues.
You are embarrassingly dishonest. Their point about the stress is an excellent point and yet another why one-attempt is bad design. It's the softcore league and it should act like it.
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Posté parCPTBRUMBL3Z#3146le 28 janv. 2025 10:36:46
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In the hundreds if not thousands of posts you've made so far asking the game to be made easier and less punitive, we have yet to see ONCE you admitting that you may not be as good as you think you are and that you do mistakes from time to time resulting in death by your own fault, and it isn't because of unseen effets and imbalanced damage .
The issue isn’t that I refuse to acknowledge mistakes or personal accountability – I’ve admitted plenty of times that player error can contribute to failure. The issue is the tendency to dismiss or downplay the broader context of game design flaws and overly punitive mechanics that also play a role in those failures. It's about balancing both sides – acknowledging when it's the player's fault and when game design decisions create unnecessary frustration.
Also, I don't think it's fair to assume that a desire for a less punitive system equals a lack of skill. A challenging game can still be fair and rewarding. PoE1 made changes based on player feedback that improved the experience, and it's not unreasonable to expect PoE2 to do the same. When people ask for more reasonable difficulty curves or clearer mechanics, it's not about reducing challenge; it's about fairness and clarity – concepts that have often been overlooked in favor of design decisions that don't always take player feedback into account.
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If every time something goes wrong, you just say 'It’s your fault,' you’re ignoring the broader issue of game design. Some players might not mind the high stakes, but for others, it’s a frustrating experience that could easily be addressed by tweaking how failure impacts the player’s progression.
It's not about 'blaming' players for not being perfect; it’s about creating an environment where failure is a learning opportunity, not just a setback that makes people feel like they're being punished for every minor mistake. So, when you say 'It’s your fault,' it’s almost like you're shifting the blame onto the player, without recognizing that the design itself can sometimes create a cycle of frustration rather than growth.
And yet the number of peopole who complain about One Portal by saying " I am an Elite Golden God of gaming, I have LITERALLY NEVER died to anything in Path of Exile except bullshit instant one-shots Nostradamus couldn't see coming! I don't deserve to lose my map because of GGG's dogshit balance!" is far, far, far greater than anyone arguing your point of constant stress.
Anyone who makes such an argument is a bullshitting blowhard that has no business talking on the Internet. You (generic 'you the audience', not Z3ro specifically) are not that fucking guy. You know GOOD GODDAMN WELL what killed you, it was not an Instant Bullshit One-Shot, and arguing that your status as an Elite Golden God of Gaming needs respecting by the game design is horse hockey.
It honestly reminds me of something I remember one of the Japanese devs of Tekken saying, when the latest Tekken came out. Modern fighting games and other competitive games which pit a single player against another single player are way less popular than they used to be because modern gamers have been trained by high-profile team games to blame anyone but themselves for their failures. It's always "The Team's Fault" you lost in those games, never your own, but when you win it's clearly because you yourself performed amazingly. It's apparently a real thing in development now - players in games without a 'Team' to insulate their egos have to eat the blame for their losses themselves and modern players have decided they don't like the taste of it.
It's another reason why Soulslikes get memed on in the broader gaming community - a good Soulslike makes it agonizingly clear that when you go down it's your own bleedin' fault, and there's a whole generation of modern gamers that cannot tolerate the taste of their own failures. They will blame everything prior to acknowledging that they biffed it, and there's nothing you can do to stop them.
Give those people six portals and when they burn up an entire level, drop back down a level, and fail to clear their six-portal map they will blame Bad Mob Balance for the problem just as much as they blame Bad Mob Balance for their deaths in One Portal; they'll just lose way more than if the game had cut them off after a single biff. Failure will never be "a learning experience" for those players because they categorically refuse to learn.
Now, I take your point about constant stress. That is literally the first time I've ever seen a valid argument against One Portal; that some players are wound too tight by the tension of knowing a single biff can cost them their waystone and that tension bleeds much of the fun out of the game. That could use a solve, but again - blowing up the entire PoE2 endgame and replacing it wholesale with PoE1's vastly inferior endgame is not a proper solve. There needs to be stakes for failure, and six portals is basically the same as infinite portals. I honestly like Jonathan's idea of being able to expend an additional Waystone to retry the map with all its mechanics and rewards intact, but I also understand the issue with people using that to manipulatively double (or more) their juicing on every single map they run by deliberately dying at the final critter and getting a free* retry.
I don't know what the proper solve is. I do know Six Portals fucking sucks. I love the One Portal system and the fact that it makes me play and fight like my existence actually matters instead of Betty Bigtits-ing my way around the place, but without the "whoops, your character's now gone forever" penalty of Hardcore. Sure, sometimes when I lose a map in a way I'm not fond of I'll put the game down for a while. That is perfectly okay. We're not Blizzard, who sees any possible moment of put-the-controller-down as a failure. Being dispirited by a moment of failure means you were invested in the hunt for success If failure doesn't hurt, then success was not worth achieving. That sense of success being worth achieving is so much stronger in PoE2 than it is in PoE1, and I'd be super upset to lose it.
Pretty much someone posted yesterday about water bags and then another poster showcased their gameplay and how it’s unfair
Dude ran straight into the ball and proceeded to continue attacking
Another poster says they got one shot a couple weeks back but it wasn’t a one shot it was like barely 70% health to 0
Another poster 2 days ago? Rolled elemental penetration and it was 32% in maps, stood in shocked ground and was 75% delirious and got “randomly one shotted”
Honestly everyone so far that has shown evidence of “random unfair one shots” on this forum have Only showcase how poor their gameplay/knowledge is.
Dernière édition par Poe2WarriorMan#6401, le 28 janv. 2025 10:54:57
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In the hundreds if not thousands of posts you've made so far asking the game to be made easier and less punitive, we have yet to see ONCE you admitting that you may not be as good as you think you are and that you do mistakes from time to time resulting in death by your own fault, and it isn't because of unseen effets and imbalanced damage .
The issue isn’t that I refuse to acknowledge mistakes or personal accountability – I’ve admitted plenty of times that player error can contribute to failure. The issue is the tendency to dismiss or downplay the broader context of game design flaws and overly punitive mechanics that also play a role in those failures. It's about balancing both sides – acknowledging when it's the player's fault and when game design decisions create unnecessary frustration.
Also, I don't think it's fair to assume that a desire for a less punitive system equals a lack of skill. A challenging game can still be fair and rewarding. PoE1 made changes based on player feedback that improved the experience, and it's not unreasonable to expect PoE2 to do the same. When people ask for more reasonable difficulty curves or clearer mechanics, it's not about reducing challenge; it's about fairness and clarity – concepts that have often been overlooked in favor of design decisions that don't always take player feedback into account.
Translation : "Ho, I may fail once in a blue moon... BUT the game is badly design and it's always the game's fault if I fail."
So you don't accept your own mistakes and instead of learning and becoming a better player you'd rather ask the game to be made easier.
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Posté pardwqrf#0717le 28 janv. 2025 10:55:20
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There is stakes for failure. It's the xp loss. One Portal is not needed. It was obviously poorly thought out as well since the devs already admitted the pinnacle bosses should have had six portals to begin with.
XP Loss is a bad stake for failure. One, because it isn't a penalty for failure of the thing you're doing - it's a penalty for failure retroactively applied to things you've already done. XP loss on death is "you retroactively failed the less fifteen maps you did", and has zip fuck-all nothing to do with the map you actually failed on.
Two, because it's clearly not stakes for failure, if players like yourself, Brumblez, and the rest are to be believed, as you've all said "I do not care at all about losing XP on death, I just hate losing map sustain". If you don't care in the slightest about losing XP - and clearly you don't - is it really a stake for failure?
Failure is supposed to sting. It's supposed to hurt. It's supposed to cost something. Yes, even in Softcore.Elsewise why should anyone ever care about failing and not just smash their face into T17s day in, day out whether they can actually complete them or not?
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Posté par1453R#7804le 28 janv. 2025 10:58:46
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I understand that it’s easy to jump to conclusions, but I’m trying to have a productive conversation about the design choices and difficulty balance in Path of Exile 2. We all have different perspectives on what makes a game challenging or frustrating, and personal attacks or sophistry aren’t helping move the discussion forward.
I’ve acknowledged that player mistakes are part of the equation, but I also believe it's important to discuss how game design can impact the overall experience. Can we please keep the conversation focused on the topic at hand and avoid getting into personal assumptions? I’d like to continue the discussion in a way that’s respectful and constructive for both sides.
Furthermore, asking me to constantly 'admit' personal mistakes in the way you're suggesting just shifts the conversation to anecdotal evidence, which doesn’t really help us explore the broader game design issues that affect everyone. A single player's experience, or even repeated failures, doesn't invalidate the points about potential design flaws or difficulty imbalances that can impact many players, regardless of skill.
Focusing on personal admissions doesn't move the conversation forward in a meaningful way; it's more about the larger context of game design, and how both individual player errors and systemic mechanics interact. Let’s keep the focus on that and avoid turning this into a back-and-forth over personal anecdotes or assumptions. I’d much rather continue the discussion about how PoE2 could improve and balance its difficulty without getting sidetracked by individual cases.
Dernière édition par Z3RoNightMare#7140, le 28 janv. 2025 11:22:27
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In the hundreds if not thousands of posts you've made so far asking the game to be made easier and less punitive, we have yet to see ONCE you admitting that you may not be as good as you think you are and that you do mistakes from time to time resulting in death by your own fault, and it isn't because of unseen effets and imbalanced damage .
The issue isn’t that I refuse to acknowledge mistakes or personal accountability – I’ve admitted plenty of times that player error can contribute to failure. The issue is the tendency to dismiss or downplay the broader context of game design flaws and overly punitive mechanics that also play a role in those failures. It's about balancing both sides – acknowledging when it's the player's fault and when game design decisions create unnecessary frustration.
Also, I don't think it's fair to assume that a desire for a less punitive system equals a lack of skill. A challenging game can still be fair and rewarding. PoE1 made changes based on player feedback that improved the experience, and it's not unreasonable to expect PoE2 to do the same. When people ask for more reasonable difficulty curves or clearer mechanics, it's not about reducing challenge; it's about fairness and clarity – concepts that have often been overlooked in favor of design decisions that don't always take player feedback into account.
What I don't get is that all the one-portal hard liners seem to think that because they don't mind it, it's somehow laziness, lack of skill, or some other excuse as to why everyone that hates it hates it. The perspective is frustratingly myopic, very Principal Skinner AmIOutOfTouch.meme. Just because some might like it doesn't in any way negatively impact their gameplay if someone else got to use 6 portals again. Punishment =/= Challenge, Challenge =/= Difficulty, Difficulty =/= Punishment. Punishment should be teachable, but how punitive it is also needs to be sensible. There is an expectation that Softcore will be a relatively lax punishment, nothing that can't be too time consuming to make up for. One-attempt is tremendously punitive, and restoring 6 portal won't do anything to negatively impact or change the actual end game, just how softcore handles death penalties. It could be the easiest game in the world, but if it isn't marketing itself as a rogue-like/lite or harsh or hardcore and one death later it wipes your save or something, that's going to be incredibly frustrating and demotivating. As you said it, such a thing would be highly stressful. People player Hardcore because they want that stress, it's part of the fun. Softcore players play softcore because they do not want that stress, and one-portal is significantly and demotivatingly stressful.
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Posté parCPTBRUMBL3Z#3146le 28 janv. 2025 11:32:34
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Tryhards and content creators are already playing glass cannon builds. The only people 10% and 1-portal are making the game difficult for are new players and casual players.
These punishments are not for the elite amongst their playerbase, but for all the people they campaigned so hard to bring in with the release of this game.
Regardless of your stance on how much difficulty is fun or necessary, GGG isn't balancing the game for those performing at top percentages. They brought magic find back and made it easier than ever. They have done absolutely nothing to curb the use of TFT, since they have refused to implement an actual trade system for archaic, preferential reasons and are taking their sweet time putting one in for this game. Speed runners now have the campaign down to 3 hours and some change with prepared gear.
The only people GGG has upped the difficulty for are the new and casual players. The numbers have been impressive for them, but this balancing isn't for "fun" for a majority of people, but a minority of people. They didn't gate things like ascendancy behind controversially RNG and difficult content because the player base wanted them to.
GGG just needs to understand they're not making this game for all the people they heavily marketed to up to launch of 2. "LOOK, COUCH CO-OP," yeah until you get to maps and then there's no point. "PLAY WITH YOUR FRIENDS, BETTER MULTIPLAYER," but only during portions of campaign. "MORE DIFFICULT AND IMPACTFUL," but they still think "impactful" = tedious, annoying, time sinks.
If they're happy with that decision, then it's clear they're not trying to compete with Diablo. Diablo devs at least understand making a game people can play together that doesn't beat you down for a single mistake.
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Posté parSudoken#4585le 28 janv. 2025 11:33:59
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