XP penalty and likely 1 portal is NOT going anywhere

Post reported. troll.

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Z3RoNightMare#7140 a écrit :

You keep framing it as if it's just about adapting, but what you're ignoring is how the structure of the game can turn failures into discouragement rather than learning. Your stance that 'it’s all on the player' misses the role of game design in shaping that experience. If the game were structured differently, it could allow players to make mistakes, learn from them, and still feel like they’re moving forward, without feeling like they're stuck in an endless cycle of punishment.

Structure of the Game: its not 1 waystone and done. There's your structure of the game.

You tell me I'm ignoring things, and you keep ignoring that one tiny little fact....

"Feel like they are moving forward": You are at the endgame. There is no linear moving forward. You WILL hit walls. You WILL have to grind. You WILL have to adjust. You WILL have to step down. Even with 6 portals, this was true.


Turn failure into discouragement: yet another PERSONAL issue, not a game issue. Where you see discouragement, I (and plenty others) see motivation to grind and improve. You are assuming the absolute worst, lowest about other players. Thankfully, GGG knows better.

I've used this analogy before: plenty of people try to learn musical instruments. Many give up because they couldn't put in the effort, or progress was going too slow, or any number of reasons. None of which are because "the instrument induces failure which leads to discouragement in EVERYONE".

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cowmoo275#3095 a écrit :

Personally, I like to think about why I died rather than rush in blind again for the 10th/20th/100th time. 6 portals, or ANY portals, reinforces the "no think, repeat" style of gameplay.

Hyperbole inception keeps going deeper.

And you know what helps thinking about why you died & learn from it...having another attempt at what just killed you.

Without that who knows how much time could pass before a similar situation arises. Was it a map mod that did the damage? Was it some aoe I didn't see? Was it a combination of both?

If you truly cared about the player being able to learn you wouldn't fight so intensely to keep 1 attempts. It seems more like gatekeeping content from those you deem less than...

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1453R#7804 a écrit :

they can. if they're the right kind of punitive. XP loss and taking away your already-achieved progress is not the right kind of punitive. Saying "you tried this map, you bricked it, better luck next node" is a much better kind of punitive. If 'punitive' is the word you wish to use.

Is losing mechanics and loot not a form of progression loss? I would certainly strongly oppose removing all death penalties in softcore, but the idea is that it needs to find the right balance. There is good reason to argue that exp loss needs a rethink in how it is handled to feel less "punitive", just as there is good reason to say the same about one-attempt maps. At least in the case of exp loss, PoE2 still has a much better rate of gear progression, and more chances to clear maps and earn mechanic rewards becomes a stronger and more prominent form of progression than a dozen or so more passive points, especially considering how many of those passives tend to be travel nodes.

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Categorically incorrect. There is no effective difference between six portals and infinite portals in the overwhelming majority of cases. Six portals is enough to zero out almost any XP bar if someone decides to smashface against the map. And people absolutely push harder than they can sustain or clear. Why do you think the forums are constantly filled with endless whingeing about how haaaard the game is? Hell, even you are unwilling to admit that most of your deaths are your own fault; to quote:

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 a écrit :

I have more fingers on one hand than times I can honestly say it was my fault I died or a clear example of being under geared since entering maps.

The number of times I've seen people say "I'm a GOD at [Path of Exile/Elden Ring/Armored Core/Soul Calibur/whatever-other-game-one-pleases-here], I CAN'T fail! If I die it's the GAME'S fault!" is...well. Vastly higher than the number of fingers on any hand you care to name.

No, you just seem to be, and I genuinely mean this, obectively wrong. There is no difference between 6 and infinite because most players don't need all 6. Most players will clear in just 1, and the punitive aspect of one-attempts comes in where one bad moment of luck means you die. This game as well as its predecessor is FILLED to the absolute brim with bullshit deaths even for the most skilled players, many of which are those streamers you hate so much. If GGG is trying to reduce heads bashing walls, then there are surely better ways to do it than significantly damaging the enjoyment of the game by the majority who tend to respect their limits. And I genuinely mean that about my deaths since mapping. Approaching 9 times out of 10 it was something I literally did not see, straight up enemies dead or out of range of any and from full or recovering to near full I just die. Plenty of others were just the dumbest of bad luck, like an unexpected freeze from no enemy of consequence (and not the shades, and I freely accept some deaths they caused when still learning how to deal with them) despite the countless cold attacks I've straight up barreled through. Still more--and tons of close calls--I was straight up barreling through without too much issue only for one random rare to smash 3k health by so much as pointing at me (and for the literal same kind of rare in the same map to tickle hardly more than 150 health per hit in one instance).

As for people claiming it's the game's fault, well, there's ample proof to suggest much of the time they're right; they certainly are not wrong given how much would kill even the highly skilled and well geared. The rest are people seemingly upset this game requires more of them than kiting mobs or just standing inside attacks. It is rather unique in the realm of Diablo-like ARPGs in how much more player skill it requires over raw game knowledge and patience to grind for best in slot gear. After Draven, I didn't die to a single act boss except for two screw ups in act 3 (partially because campaign at launch was stupid stingy on good gear upgrades) and Mektul because he's overtuned as fuck (which they really need to fix considering I nuked him into nothing come act 6, wasn't even an effort on my part he was that easy).

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If you eliminate every possible penalty for dying and failing, what's the point of playing? if it's actually factually impossible to lose a map because "losing a map to a stupid mistake or some Cryptid Bogeyman neverseeum rare that RKO'd me outta nowhere is dumb!", then what possible failure state could there be for the game?

It's the softcore league. Seriously, for what purpose could it possibly serve to frustrate so many players by being so punitive? Losing a map, its mechanics, the loot you earned, AND experience penalty, AND the time you spent feels terrible. Period. This is the undeniable experience of many players and you act so dismissively of them. While practically every death could be argued in the most cynical and contrarian positions that you should have just "played better" or "you needed better gear" regardless of the game's shitty state of balance (especially for certain classes), it doesn't change the fact that many players will experience map after map after map with relatively little serious threat and just out of completely no where just POP and they're dead having done nothing to genuinely increase their risk.

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Love how people always accuse me of hyperbole instead of y'know, actually arguing. Sure, I like to be colorful and creative instead of boring as a Path of Exile with absolutely no failure state and thus no success state. Does it actually change the essence of anything I'm saying?

And I love talking to brick walls that pretend to know my mind, pretend to know my experience, and act as if their opinion is the sole and objective reality and absolute truth that even a God would bow down to. If you want a serious conversation, especially a productive one, cut the hyperbole, cut the personal attacks, cut the accusatory tone, stop strawmanning, and honestly address the counter argument point by point. Simply gainsaying and retorting a complete and total fantasy of the opposition's actual position, actual experience, and actual point is a surefire way to prove you do not deserve their respect.

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Or, here's a thought - don't assblast your maps so fast you can't see what's happening on the screen. There's maybe three instances I can bring to mind in my PoE2 run so far where I legitimately don't know what killed me. Them's the breaks sometimes in a game featuring wild randomization, though. And frankly, those moments are so worth it for the rush of being thrown a real curveball by the system and figuring out how to work around it and scrape through victorious anyways. There's a reason Deadly Evolution is far and away my favorite node on the Atlas tree.

Except, I don't, and plenty others don't, either. The game is woefully inadequate regarding information you can get via at-a-glance assessment of the battlefield. You don't even reliably know when an enemy is a rare or magic mob, and just having a circle of flame or something around them isn't a guarantee of which kind it is, let alone does it say anything else about their other mods. The game's pacing is far too fast to be able to assess every threat at every frame and know what rare mob has what mods in an instant without taking your eyes off something else just to read what it has. Are you trying to suggest that other players' experiences are illegitimate because you don't share them?

I'm reminded of a story I've heard of a professional baseball player trying to teach others how to read each kind of throw from the pitcher. He had no earthly clue he had freak of nature eyes that could see the ball as more than a mere blur. If you are so blessed to be among the gaming elite of the elite such that you can see every action of every frame and respond just as quickly, congratulations. That doesn't mean the vast majority of players aren't having to deal with their mediocrity that can miss things despite their best efforts and despite high skill and game knowledge. That doesn't mean the vast majority of players have to be ok with so punitive a death penalty as we have right now in, once again, the god damned softcore league.

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Mob power is fine, with a few ugly exceptions one can easily keep an eye out for in most cases. And frankly, losing the occasional map is just par for the course in Softcore. Why it should be seen as some horrifying game-breaking deal-shattering Hyper Nightmare, I will never understand.

And no, it is not, which is a significant pain point regarding how one-attempt is too punitive. Much of the time, difficulty spikes and valleys more or less remain constrained within a range, with a couple outliers that spike higher than the average peak, especially when mixing in mechanics. And then, there are moments where literally no amount of skill is going to help against something you'd need top 0.1% gear to survive and can't avoid. General mobs are not mechanically deep and it is a genuine problem of the game's design that it has gone this far into a mechanically deep experience to still have such moments where all that really mattered was whether you were averaging 200 Life and 30 Strength per gear piece. Those kinds of spikes are all the more reason to get rid of one-attempt maps because they feel that much worse to die to. And even if they fixed how broken the mob damage equation seems to be, it won't change the fact that many players will feel one-attempt is simply far too punitive a punishment for one measly death.

I believe items that prevent experience loss, such as Omens, should be more accessible. While I might be able to buy one through currency trade, I’ve never come across one myself despite being level 94.

Additionally, I think portals shouldn’t despawn upon death. Instead, players could be allowed to reenter the map with reduced bonuses after each death. For example, the first death could reduce bonuses by 20%, the second by 40%, and so on. Losing the map bonus already feels like a significant penalty, but at least this way, players could reenter and retrieve their drops from breaches or other mechanics. Right now, there’s often no time to collect anything during a fight, and dying at the end without picking up any loot feels pretty frustrating.Of course, the uber OP builds probably wouldn’t agree with or care about a system change like this.

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PaintMaster#2396 a écrit :

Imagine GGG remove xp penalty, and give us 6 portals, what would it mean?

1. Literally 0 reason investing into defense at all or above bare minimum.
2. It doesn't matter if you die or not, you still have more portals anyway.
3. This encourage more and more people play exactly same fastest range builds.
4. This encourage people play builds that clear screens with half of gear being rarity and 0 defenses.
5. It just deletes build diversity, when most of players play same build.

1) that doesnt make any sense because without defense you cant clear content.
Why would you go fight arbiter with no defense or minimum, it would just make your chance of success lower. It does not make any absolute sense.

2) You can run out of portals soon or later, also it doesnt matter if you die or not even without exp loss because in standard you can just rinse and repeat, defeating the whole xp "punishment" logic. The xp punishment does not have any significant meaning if not frustrate the player.

3) Everyone is already playing fast range builds or exploding builds nonetheless, this whats poe status sadly is, quite frankly a huge disappointment.

4) Again this is what is already happening, nothing will change that unless they nerf every class or buff 4x times all mobs and bosses.

5) nonsense

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TorhanSacras#2751 a écrit :

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PaintMaster#2396 a écrit :

Imagine GGG remove xp penalty, and give us 6 portals, what would it mean?

1. Literally 0 reason investing into defense at all or above bare minimum.
2. It doesn't matter if you die or not, you still have more portals anyway.
3. This encourage more and more people play exactly same fastest range builds.
4. This encourage people play builds that clear screens with half of gear being rarity and 0 defenses.
5. It just deletes build diversity, when most of players play same build.

Not denying that some stuff there in maps do hit hard. And it hit harder if you don't care about mods on your waystones that can make easy map into deadly map.

If you die in maps on your 1500 life build, its not game problem, its your problem.
If you die in maps because you didn't bother investing into defenses, its not game problem, its your problem.

Game will change a lot and not once during Early Access. Work around to make your character good, instead of complaining about "game problem" that is your build problem in reality.

Some tips that might help you:

- On builds that naturally don't have high life, you should definitely go into hybrid life/es, or life/es/evasion, its good, its worth it.

- You might know that armor is bad, work around it, get a bit of armor against smaller hits, just stack more life against bigger hits instead of going hard into armor, since currently there's just nothing in the game that hit for more than 4k phys damage, so for example 4k life character with 5k armor will tank higher hit than 3k life character with 15k armor.

- Most of stuff that kill you in maps is elemental but not phys. So max resists and higher life/es is the way to make melee character tanky. Very few mobs that you find in maps can hit hard with phys damage, but almost all if not all of those mobs are very slow and easy to avoid.

Edit: changed some points because some people take every single word literally.

- 1 Portal, 10% XP Loss
My Build is a glass cannon with the intent of killing things before I see them.

- 6 Portals, no XP Loss
My Build is a glass cannon with the intent of killing things before I see them.

There would be literally zero difference in how people play. It would just make the game more fun and less annoying.

???

On first example you die once, you lose map because you don't care about defenses.
On second example you likely clear map in 6 portals, you get to 100 with no effort. How is this zero difference? Is this some trolling?

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soulnote77#0888 a écrit :

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PaintMaster#2396 a écrit :

Imagine GGG remove xp penalty, and give us 6 portals, what would it mean?

1. Literally 0 reason investing into defense at all or above bare minimum.
2. It doesn't matter if you die or not, you still have more portals anyway.
3. This encourage more and more people play exactly same fastest range builds.
4. This encourage people play builds that clear screens with half of gear being rarity and 0 defenses.
5. It just deletes build diversity, when most of players play same build.

1) that doesnt make any sense because without defense you cant clear content.
Why would you go fight arbiter with no defense or minimum, it would just make your chance of success lower. It does not make any absolute sense.

2) You can run out of portals soon or later, also it doesnt matter if you die or not even without exp loss because in standard you can just rinse and repeat, defeating the whole xp "punishment" logic. The xp punishment does not have any significant meaning if not frustrate the player.

3) Everyone is already playing fast range builds or exploding builds nonetheless, this whats poe status sadly is, quite frankly a huge disappointment.

4) Again this is what is already happening, nothing will change that unless they nerf every class or buff 4x times all mobs and bosses.

5) nonsense

1. You can clear with no defenses, but its risky. Arbiter currently is getting deleted because glass cannons can do it, they don't need defenses.
2. Then not die, and you will not be frustrated ;)
3. Lie, not everyone.
4. Agree.

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PaintMaster#2396 a écrit :

Imagine GGG remove xp penalty, and give us 6 portals, what would it mean?

1. Literally 0 reason investing into defense at all or above bare minimum.
2. It doesn't matter if you die or not, you still have more portals anyway.
3. This encourage more and more people play exactly same fastest range builds.
4. This encourage people play builds that clear screens with half of gear being rarity and 0 defenses.
5. It just deletes build diversity, when most of players play same build.

Not denying that some stuff there in maps do hit hard. And it hit harder if you don't care about mods on your waystones that can make easy map into deadly map.

If you die in maps on your 1500 life build, its not game problem, its your problem.
If you die in maps because you didn't bother investing into defenses, its not game problem, its your problem.

Game will change a lot and not once during Early Access. Work around to make your character good, instead of complaining about "game problem" that is your build problem in reality.

Some tips that might help you:

- On builds that naturally don't have high life, you should definitely go into hybrid life/es, or life/es/evasion, its good, its worth it.

- You might know that armor is bad, work around it, get a bit of armor against smaller hits, just stack more life against bigger hits instead of going hard into armor, since currently there's just nothing in the game that hit for more than 4k phys damage, so for example 4k life character with 5k armor will tank higher hit than 3k life character with 15k armor.

- Most of stuff that kill you in maps is elemental but not phys. So max resists and higher life/es is the way to make melee character tanky. Very few mobs that you find in maps can hit hard with phys damage, but almost all if not all of those mobs are very slow and easy to avoid.

Edit: changed some points because some people take every single word literally.

Hmm instresting point of view so the problem as you say its on player not on the game .Ok cool lets take what you say and analyse it .
1)"the player has the problem with his build and his game play"
2)"the game its perfect with every single mechanic works pretty fine and doesnt need changes"
3)"exp its good way to keep the balance on the game and build diversity"
And then you gave out some tips for new player's ( i will focus on this )
So to give you some infos i am new player on the game never tuch the poe1 i spend 450 hours on poe2 and 300+hours on youtube i am lvl 95 monk and 20% playing CI with 5.5k ES . Now after the infos so you know with who you talking i feel its important for the conversation i want to go to your thoughs.
All the things you mentions and what you say would be great and on point IF GGG would take the time to explain what the f is going on in the ther game .New player has 0 litteraly 0 info comming throu the game all he need's to do its to spend the same amount of game play hours on internet .
So all your points for me are not based , we dont have anything explaing us what we need to do with our gear how to fix it , how to gear up , why we need to use rarity , what attacks the monsters does , what we need to take care off when we facing an specific type of monsters , how and why we need to juice maps , what maps are deadly and need to be avoided , how the "end game" leagues work and what we need to focus on atlas , how atlas works in general .
I can go on forever , sadly litteraly 0 info for new playes and thats kills the game for a casual new player that never tuch poe1 and doesnt had the same amount of hours as i had to invest in a game . When they release the "early access" they did a perfect job with the game but sadly 0 work with how to explain it . So its a company problem all you mention not a gamer problem sorry to say that to you and bring you back to reallity but from lets say 100% of player base only the 15-20% has this amount of time to invest . So for what audience you made a game and how you will make the audience goes bigger ?

>XP penalty and likely 1 portal is NOT going anywhere
It really should.
The goal of them is to incentivize build review and change, improvement.
Which HAS ALREADY BEEN ACHIEVED IN THE PREVIOUS BUNCH OF THE ARPGS, INCLUDING POE1, BY SIMPLE EVENTUAL WALL THAT YOU CANT GET OVER UNLESS YOU REVIEW AND IMPROVE YOUR BUILD!
XP penalty and 1 portal add literally nothing on top of what classic endgame walls already provide, while making playing experience way worse.
>They make the gameplay more meaningful
You can perfectly enjoy life and feel the meaning of it without getting random extremal beatings. You all have perfectly enjoyed PoE1 endgame without getting extremal beatings. You all have perfectly enjoyed other ARPGs or just videogames without them having kick in the balls mechanics.
If it adds more meaning, amount of it isnt worthy of the immense punishment.

This whole thing isnt that cool crucial element that endgame lacks GGG think it is.