Mana Drain Enemies - POE 2 EA

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MoonPeace#1394 a écrit :

The comedians who tout the ability to "stand next to the monster" probably need a bit more training in improv or cogent thought.

If your build can't stand next to a single mob long enough to kill it, you have a bad build.

I don't know what else there is to say.

65%-70% block rates are easily attainable and if your MoM char is running a staff or a focus instead, then you made the choice to go glass canon and sometimes will pay the price for it.

CC abilities like freeze and electrocute exist as well.

If your build is failing to deal with donuts consistently, you need to fix it.


Making the donut easier to deal with is pretty sad cope.

Fix your build.

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Mordgier#6997 a écrit :

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MoonPeace#1394 a écrit :

The comedians who tout the ability to "stand next to the monster" probably need a bit more training in improv or cogent thought.

If your build can't stand next to a single mob long enough to kill it, you have a bad build.

I disagree, and unlike you I will qualify my argument with at least some supporting statements:

1) There are fine (many even) builds that are not designed for close-quarters fighting, especially close-quarters fighting with rare monsters.

2) There are situations, even for some tougher up-close builds, where combinations of rare monster mods, delirium mods, and essence mods make the monster too dangerous for steady up-close confrontation.

Being familiar with the danger posed by some mod combinations, I consider your statement to be ridiculous.

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MoonPeace#1394 a écrit :

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Mordgier#6997 a écrit :

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MoonPeace#1394 a écrit :

The comedians who tout the ability to "stand next to the monster" probably need a bit more training in improv or cogent thought.

If your build can't stand next to a single mob long enough to kill it, you have a bad build.

I disagree, and unlike you I will qualify my argument with at least some supporting statements:

1) There are fine (many even) builds that are not designed for close-quarters fighting, especially close-quarters fighting with rare monsters.

2) There are situations, even for some tougher up-close builds, where combinations of rare monster mods, delirium mods, and essence mods make the monster too dangerous for steady up-close confrontation.

Being familiar with the danger posed by some mod combinations, I consider your statement to be ridiculous.

Your supporting statements are opinions that do not hold up to what PoE1 was and what PoE2 is.


There were plenty of builds in PoE that could not deal with reflect.

You made a choice to run builds for which hard counters on rares existed.

The donut is the hard counter to MoM builds.

You have the option of layering defenses via a shield. It's even easier in PoE 2 with weapon swapping where you can swap to shield and have passives allocated to block, swap to wand and focus and have them unallocated.


Not every build is going to be able to curbstomp every single mob and that is exactly how it should work.

If the donut ceases to be risky for a 5k mana with 1.5k/s regen build, what is supposed to be risky for it?


As I said before, 65% block chance is easily attainable for MoM chars 70% if they're willing to spend some serious divines and if they are choosing to not add that defensive layer - they should in fact die.

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Mordgier#6997 a écrit :

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MoonPeace#1394 a écrit :

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Mordgier#6997 a écrit :

If your build can't stand next to a single mob long enough to kill it, you have a bad build.

I disagree, and unlike you I will qualify my argument with at least some supporting statements:

1) There are fine (many even) builds that are not designed for close-quarters fighting, especially close-quarters fighting with rare monsters.

2) There are situations, even for some tougher up-close builds, where combinations of rare monster mods, delirium mods, and essence mods make the monster too dangerous for steady up-close confrontation.

Being familiar with the danger posed by some mod combinations, I consider your statement to be ridiculous.

Your supporting statements are opinions that do not hold up to what PoE1 was and what PoE2 is.

As a long-time veteran of PoE 1, and having at least a reasonable amount of experience with PoE 2, including a lot of experience with build variety (and strategy) and with the various dangers posed by combinations of the mods I mentioned, I reiterate my statements.

Your argument, as a blanket statement, was that any build should be able to go toe-to-toe with any monster in any circumstances with the mana-drain donut, or it's a "bad build" (in your words). I consider that argument to be greatly disconnected from the larger realities of both games...but I welcome correction, should you provide any that rings true.

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Mordgier#6997 a écrit :

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Onald83#3538 a écrit :

Donut? what donut ??? stand next to the boss and got 1 shot because my mana still got drained (mana is life ). so frustating at lv 95 . They need to fix the donut.

I'm also a sorc and have while I don't love the donut they're not that hard to deal with.

Freeze and nuke or hug and nuke.

You can blink into the non drain zone and if you don't have the ability to take a few hits with full mana and block, that's a build issue.

Now when it's duplicated donuts who happen to be hasted...oh boy.


The donut needs to exist because it's the counter to MoM. You want a build that's just all pros but no cons?

There need to be mobs that challenge the builds. The donut is your challenge. Learn to overcome it.

Full quote of what I said and I stand by it.

You have multiple options of dealing with donuts.

From CC, blocking to tanking.

If you can't do either of those.

You have a bad build.

I stand by that.

My current build is 70% damage from mana first and donuts are a non issue - because I rely on block for mitigation. I pay a price in lower dps for using a shield.

If you choose to glass cannon the game, that's cool, that's fun - but you will die. That was the same case with tons of CoC POE builds that would instantly drop dead to off screen reflects etc.


As I said before, builds should have counters from mobs or the game is trivialized.

The donut is the only scary mob for a MoM build - and people want it nerfed? Come on....

Perhaps, manadrainers could carry an implicit vulnerability to Mana Leech to act as counterplay.

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LeFlesh#9979 a écrit :

Perhaps, manadrainers could carry an implicit vulnerability to Mana Leech to act as counterplay.

I'd be all for that - and also for mana leech to suck less - as for us - like the ability is just terrible.

Currently viable mana recovery options are 2% mana on kill from jewels. +Mana on kill and leech are terrible.

why now u all talk about skill and build etc , each have different build ( oh the GGG said they dont want 1 build for all ) .problem for me its still draining inside the zone , i know i wont die with almost 6k es and 5k mana from lv82 boss ( not elite , with safe affix on my waystone , i always choose carefully ). after die i try to elite in map and it doesnt drain at all if u stand next to the monster.

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Mordgier#6997 a écrit :

As I said before, builds should have counters from mobs or the game is trivialized.

While some of your blanket statements ring quite hollow, I happen to agree with you firmly on this point, except...

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Mordgier#6997 a écrit :

The donut is the only scary mob for a MoM build - and people want it nerfed? Come on....

There should be counters to builds and mechanics, yes, but even those counters themselves should have counters.

I'm going to make a blanket statement of my own: Any ill effect in the game, whether propagated by a player on a monster or by a monster on a player, should be filtered through relevant defenses. The mana-drain donut is a fine mod conceptually, but the capacity should absolutely exist to mitigate its effect (rate of drain), in the same way that slow, chill, freeze, ignite, poison, bleed, all forms of damage (etc.) can be mitigated. The ability to mitigate negative effects is a cornerstone of such a game. I accept the possible benefit of "trump cards", and I'm sure there could be some such mod, but the mana-drain donut isn't such a one. In it's current form, it is a damage-over-time effect against which there is no form of "resistance", or other protection.

"Effects" that offer no mitigation...no defense...are (in general) shallow, sloppy, crude, ill-conceived. The mana-drain donut is such a mod, in its current form, because there exists no direct way to mitigate its effect.

Imagine analogous mod, in illustration: A rare monster mod is introduced that shoots out ice crystals which completely ignore player cold resistance; Some players cry out that it is unfair and wrecking their so-and-so-based build (probably melee or minion); Other players (probably ranged) shout out in its defense, "But we need this to counter those pesky minion and melee builds! We love that it is impossible to mitigate the damage with resistance when a player or ally is hit! Also, players who can't dodge those pesky ice crystals must have bad builds, and they need to do things differently." Or, more simply, imagine if any of the above mentioned negative effects was integrated into a rare-monster mod without any possibility of direct mitigation of its effects. Would you support such a mod? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't, for the reasons I've stated.


Summary: Mana-drain donut mod is good conceptually, but it is poorly implemented in the game, specifically because its effect cannot be directly mitigated.

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Mordgier#6997 a écrit :

Your supporting statements are opinions that do not hold up to what PoE1 was and what PoE2 is.
There were plenty of builds in PoE that could not deal with reflect.
You made a choice to run builds for which hard counters on rares existed.
The donut is the hard counter to MoM builds.
You have the option of layering defenses via a shield. It's even easier in PoE 2 with weapon swapping where you can swap to shield and have passives allocated to block, swap to wand and focus and have them unallocated.
Not every build is going to be able to curbstomp every single mob and that is exactly how it should work.
If the donut ceases to be risky for a 5k mana with 1.5k/s regen build, what is supposed to be risky for it?
As I said before, 65% block chance is easily attainable for MoM chars 70% if they're willing to spend some serious divines and if they are choosing to not add that defensive layer - they should in fact die.

Reflect was dealt with certain skills/modifiers added later in POE1 after many, many people complained enough about it. GGG will act simularly to mana siphon.