Lightning Strike - weak/inferior skill?

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Shppy a écrit :

So much of this is simply false or looks much less 'sick' in the proper context

-shock is not easy or near-permanent with LS. With crit it can be reasonable to expect shocks on enemies due to the auto-application on crit (a mechanic which is pretty much completely unjustifiable). But without crit, shocking via LS is extremely unreasonable, as the existing chances to apply shock without crit are horrible, especially when it comes to using physical attacks (which make the few nodes that grant chance to shock fairly wasteful unless you go full phys to elemental conversion)

-"free AoE"... except it's about the same cost as similar skills (more expensive at lower levels, actually), and every other similar skill has a more usable AoE that LS's 3 bolts at set angles (which aside from the central bolt are often useless at a distance)

-to the contrary, LS is one of the weakest single target attacks in the game. It deals 130% base damage to the main target, that's it. Static Strike deals 110% base plus an additional 77% base on the release, Molten Strike deals 120% base on the initial hit and an additional 72% for every ball that hits the initial target, Glacial Hammer deals the same 130%, Heavy Strike deals 150%, Double Strike deals 70% twice, Dual Strike deals 85% of both weapons combined, Viper Strike deals 100% with 10% phys added as chaos and a 50% chance for 175% base damage as a DoT...... just about the only physical damage based single-target attack WEAKER than LS is Infernal Blow at 125% with no secondary effects on the main target.

-No types of damage nodes 'double' because of the conversion, especially not projectile damage. That's not the way it works, at all. Projectile damage nodes, like Melee damage nodes, are actually horrible for LS, as they only work on the initial hit or the bolts, not both. You want weapon-type nodes or general physical damage boosts, as they apply to both the initial hit and the bolts. Alternatively, elemental/elemental weapon damage boosts work well too if you go with a full phys to elemental route.

-91% base isn't impressive. Spectral throw deals up to 57% base damage, pretty much a minimum of twice per attack and quite possibly 4-5+ times if you use it reasonably well. Even with LMP to rival LS's 3 bolts, Spectral Throw will generally deal more damage per attack AND cover a much better area.

-People heavily overrate Multistrike. In the end, it's about a ~20% dps amp at low level and only gets up to about a 32% dps amp; it's really not that impressive of a gem, especially for the cost multiplier and especially compared to its power-creeped cousin Spell Echo.

-Converting physical to elemental generally isn't great. It does offer up the possibility of double cursing and of using WED+PPAD/MPhys, but generally speaking the lack of leech plus the existence of opposing elemental resist (compared to the lack of physical resist on enemies) makes it hurt your true dps where it counts (against bosses and tough rares), even if it helps your paper dps.

I apologize, maybe I wasn't clear enough in my post and made too many assumptions:

- It should be VERY obvious when I say shock it means crit build. If you don't want to use shock you should not be using LS as your main skill.

It is very easy to shock with dagger Lightning Strike. I can continuously shock Courtyard bosses with 220dps dagger and basic gear.

- Lol, no. Free AOE means you have in-built AOE without needing a gem like Melee Splash. It is FREE in the sense there is no additional gem required to get the AOE.

I'm NOT talking about mana costs - come on man, this is obvious stuff.

- Go back and look where I say projectile damage can be scaled very high - and to do this you can do it by adding projectile nodes. Here I will copy it below in case you missed it:

"Your projectile damage can be scaled very high. Try adding projectile damage nodes."

When I say projectile nodes double boost your damage it means they increase BOTH physical and lightning. Again, this is obvious stuff, that I felt I didn't need to spell out but I guess I was wrong.

- You seem to be confusing damage effectiveness vs. total damage. Apologies if this wasn't clear but I am referring to high per HIT damage from high damage effectiveness of LS. This enables you to shock. Shock enables you to freeze easier because your cold crit damage is multiplied by 1.5x. You will have lower per HIT damage with Static Strike or Double Strike.

Why is this important? - shock and freeze are 2 of the most OP mechanics in the game. I will have easier time perma-freezing a dangerous boss like Palace Dominus with LS than the other melee skills except Glacial Hammer because I have shock AND high damage effectiveness.

- 91% base damage on each projectile is pretty good. I don't see how ST's mediocre base damage + a penalty from LMP results in more damage per projectile. Unless I am confused somewhere, please show me the math for this. There's a reason why you hardly see any good life ST builds.

- Yes Multistrike has attack penalty but you are getting an insane attack speed boost that more than makes up for it. You are getting 2 additional attacks and a massive more attack speed bonus. You will be hitting 10APS on a ranged build, while others are hitting 4APS.

- Not really. Leech is never really a problem on 50% conversion. If you go more, then yes you need more leech which is why I said you will need Berek's ring if you want to do 100% conversion. Read my post. And again, by going more elemental you benefit from WAY more DPS through shock. Using curses also means you can introduce additional "MORE" damage multipliers to both your cold and light. So end result is that you can do more DPS and have easier time surviving bosses (shock+freeze) with damage conversion.

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother...

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Ceryneian a écrit :

- Lol, no. Free AOE means you have in-built AOE without needing a gem like Melee Splash. It is FREE in the sense there is no additional gem required to get the AOE.

Whether you're talking about mana or supports, other skills have comparable if-not better multi-target capabilities implicitly. Lightning strike's "AoE" is pretty mediocre compared to Molten Strike, Reave, Spectral Throw, and Static Strike. Even Cleave's AoE is generally more usable without supports than the side bolts from an unsupported LS.

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Ceryneian a écrit :

- Go back and look where I say projectile damage can be scaled very high - and to do this you can do it by adding projectile nodes. Here I will copy it below in case you missed it:

"Your projectile damage can be scaled very high. Try adding projectile damage nodes."

When I say projectile nodes double boost your damage it means they increase BOTH physical and lightning. Again, this is obvious stuff, that I felt I didn't need to spell out but I guess I was wrong.

Hey great, scale the physical and lightning damage of the projectile portion only... while ignoring the melee hit AND using lower %increased modifiers. Sounds like a super efficient way to build. Increasing physical damage already scales the lightning damage, that's how conversion works. It's kinda obvious stuff, I didn't think *I* had to spell this out. If you're putting points into projectile damage instead of putting damage into one-handed/two-handed/dual-wielding nodes or axe/sword/dagger/etc nodes, you're wasting points, badly. You're only boosting the projectiles instead without boosting the initial attack, and even if you're only interested in using the projectiles you're still getting lower percentage increases than if you use the weapon-type nodes (typical projectile node gives 10%, typical weapon-type nodes give 12-15%, which applies to both the bolts and the melee hit).

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Ceryneian a écrit :

- 91% base damage on each projectile is pretty good. I don't see how ST's mediocre base damage + a penalty from LMP results in more damage per projectile. Unless I am confused somewhere, please show me the math for this. There's a reason why you hardly see any good life ST builds.

Because the projectiles can hit more than once per attack, while LS's projectiles can only hit at most once per attack (without chain, anyway). Even a careless ST will hit at least twice per attack, making two hits with 40% base damage when factoring in LMP. With even a little care in distancing, it becomes possible to hit targets 3-5 times with each ST attack (sometimes even more on large targets). If you space yourself properly for the rebound, ST's damage per attack is pretty outstanding even compared to melee attacks.

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Ceryneian a écrit :

- Yes Multistrike has attack penalty but you are getting an insane attack speed boost that more than makes up for it. You are getting 2 additional attacks and a massive more attack speed bonus. You will be hitting 10APS on a ranged build, while others are hitting 4APS.

For one, if others without multi are hitting ~4APS, you'll be hitting ~8APS, not 10. Multistrike only goes a little above 100% more attack speed right now. And with the damage penalty, you'll only be doing as much dps as if you had 5APS without multistrike. Since you're saying raw damage per hit is important for the sake of shocks and freezes, you'd think you'd care about dropping your damage per hit by 36%.

There's basically 3 main reasons to increase your APS.

1) To increase your dps in an exponential fashion when combined with 'increased/more damage' and 'crit' and whatnot

2) To finish your attacks faster for the sake of moving again afterwords, generally for defensive purposes and clearing speed.

3) To apply on-hit effects more frequently.

#1 is compromised heavily by Multistrike's damage penalty. #2 is more-than canceled out by the fact that Multi locks you into 3 attacks, causing you to stand in your spot for about 50% longer than if you initiated an attack without multistrike. #3 is rarely of importance outside of Life Gain on Hit, non-crit application of status ailments, or building Reave stacks, none of which is relevant to LS or most other Multistrike candidates.

Blindly seeking APS without caring about WHY you want APS is exactly what leads people overvalue Multistrike. If they'd pay attention, they'd realize it's often not doing them as much good as they think.




As for the rest of it, it all pretty much revolves around abusing crit for guaranteed status effects, a mechanic that most seem to agree should not exist, and frankly a mechanic that those of the intended user base of lightning strike (Strength-based melees) don't have much access to anyway.

Soooo the newest patch cut down shock durations by ~80%(!!) which is kind of a wtf moment for me without any improvements to the status ailment passive node values (yet).
My impression is you either want to go full conversion now or no conversion at all and use Spectral Throw because of physical damage not having to deal with resistances. This change would finally provide a niche for Lightning Strike as full conversion is not possible with ST.
But it seems even more tied to the right side of the tree with crit opposed to RT - as a pure STR gem - because of the status ailment nodes being simply too far away from the STR area.

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marco150 a écrit :

Is not that bad but is annoying to press shift while u atack everytime IMO (if you dont, the exile walk to where the mouse is)

I personally have no problem with shift, since it's a natural position of your pinky. However everyone has other preferences, so FYI you can change the hotkey to say space in the options.

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Zed_ a écrit :

Soooo the newest patch cut down shock durations by ~80%(!!) which is kind of a wtf moment for me without any improvements to the status ailment passive node values (yet).
My impression is you either want to go full conversion now or no conversion at all and use Spectral Throw because of physical damage not having to deal with resistances. This change would finally provide a niche for Lightning Strike as full conversion is not possible with ST.
But it seems even more tied to the right side of the tree with crit opposed to RT - as a pure STR gem - because of the status ailment nodes being simply too far away from the STR area.

Oh bummer. BTW: I found the news for interested people: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1292315

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Shppy a écrit :

Whether you're talking about mana or supports, other skills have comparable if-not better multi-target capabilities implicitly. Lightning strike's "AoE" is pretty mediocre compared to Molten Strike, Reave, Spectral Throw, and Static Strike. Even Cleave's AoE is generally more usable without supports than the side bolts from an unsupported LS.

No it does not. Molten Strike only works within a small distance. Spectral Throw REQUIRES LMP or GMP. Static Strike does not have the range of LS. Lol Cleave only works within a small distance.

I will take LS projectile mechanic anyday over those other skills because my AOE will have either GREATER RANGE or BETTER DAMAGE.

Why are you even trying to argue this. LS is a very unique skill that you somehow don't want to acknowledge.

Just because a streamer or a low life guy has not built a high-end LS build yet, doesn't mean the skill sucks. Just because some guy in 2012 said LS sucks, doesn't mean the skill sucks.

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Shppy a écrit :

Hey great, scale the physical and lightning damage of the projectile portion only... while ignoring the melee hit AND using lower %increased modifiers. Sounds like a super efficient way to build. Increasing physical damage already scales the lightning damage, that's how conversion works. It's kinda obvious stuff, I didn't think *I* had to spell this out. If you're putting points into projectile damage instead of putting damage into one-handed/two-handed/dual-wielding nodes or axe/sword/dagger/etc nodes, you're wasting points, badly. You're only boosting the projectiles instead without boosting the initial attack, and even if you're only interested in using the projectiles you're still getting lower percentage increases than if you use the weapon-type nodes (typical projectile node gives 10%, typical weapon-type nodes give 12-15%, which applies to both the bolts and the melee hit).

Lol, the whole point of scaling the projectile damage is if you want to play FULLY at range.

If you play fully at range then you are not using the initial attack.

If you go dagger crit you can recognize the imbalance in this because you are playing at range with a shield. This is similar to wander and ST.

If you want to play more at melee, then you scale the melee hit.

The main difference is you are swapping one gem MPD for the other PPAD.

And you are wrong again about the nodes. You might want to actually look at the passive tree buddy and see how many projectile nodes there are vs. pure melee nodes. Again as crit you are building on right side of the tree -> although the weapon nodes or phys damage with melee weapon apply to projectiles as well.

Here let me spell it out for you: in addition to the nodes that scale both your melee + projectiles -> there is +100% inc. projectile damage that you can use to FURTHER scale your projectiles. These will also add more projectile speed, and pierce.

Go back to the tree and let me know how many pure melee nodes there are on the right side for a crit build.

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Shppy a écrit :

Because the projectiles can hit more than once per attack, while LS's projectiles can only hit at most once per attack (without chain, anyway). Even a careless ST will hit at least twice per attack, making two hits with 40% base damage when factoring in LMP. With even a little care in distancing, it becomes possible to hit targets 3-5 times with each ST attack (sometimes even more on large targets). If you space yourself properly for the rebound, ST's damage per attack is pretty outstanding even compared to melee attacks.

Lol, again you are misreading what I write. I am specifically talking about damage per projectile. There is no math you can show me because 91% damage effectiveness on each projectile is better than ST base damage + LMP/GMP penalty.

Also ST does not shotgun when you use LMP/GMP. Also each attack cannot hit the same target within 0.3s as well.

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Shppy a écrit :

For one, if others without multi are hitting ~4APS, you'll be hitting ~8APS, not 10. Multistrike only goes a little above 100% more attack speed right now. And with the damage penalty, you'll only be doing as much dps as if you had 5APS without multistrike. Since you're saying raw damage per hit is important for the sake of shocks and freezes, you'd think you'd care about dropping your damage per hit by 36%.

There's basically 3 main reasons to increase your APS.

1) To increase your dps in an exponential fashion when combined with 'increased/more damage' and 'crit' and whatnot

2) To finish your attacks faster for the sake of moving again afterwords, generally for defensive purposes and clearing speed.

3) To apply on-hit effects more frequently.

#1 is compromised heavily by Multistrike's damage penalty. #2 is more-than canceled out by the fact that Multi locks you into 3 attacks, causing you to stand in your spot for about 50% longer than if you initiated an attack without multistrike. #3 is rarely of importance outside of Life Gain on Hit, non-crit application of status ailments, or building Reave stacks, none of which is relevant to LS or most other Multistrike candidates.

Blindly seeking APS without caring about WHY you want APS is exactly what leads people overvalue Multistrike. If they'd pay attention, they'd realize it's often not doing them as much good as they think.

Not exactly. It depends on the tree and your weapon. The way I build I can get up to 10APS on the right side of the tree (going for crit). I have seen some bow and wand builds and they are at 4APS usually.

Yes I think everyone who plays PoE understands Multistrike has a penalty. But the benefit of much higher attack speed, especially for a crit build easily outweighs the penalty.

This applies to everything: if you crit once, with Multistrike your other attacks are guaranteed crits. You get more survivability with instant leech (Vaal Pact or Acuity). You also have easier time maintaining status effects (given the same crit chance).

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Shppy a écrit :

As for the rest of it, it all pretty much revolves around abusing crit for guaranteed status effects, a mechanic that most seem to agree should not exist, and frankly a mechanic that those of the intended user base of lightning strike (Strength-based melees) don't have much access to anyway.

You see, this is where I can tell you have probably only played RT characters.

Crits and status effects have existed in the game for YEARS. If it was being abused it would have been changed by now.

GGG actually buffed shock for everyone by changing it to only need 1 stack instead of 3.

There is also a reason why they made Atziri bosses invulnerable to status effects.

So what if LS is a strength gem? You are telling me a crit exile on the right side should not use it?

But when it comes to Cyclone, a dex gem - the funny thing is that probably more strength characters use it than dex. So I guess you should also tell everyone using cyclone that it should only be able to be accessed by Ranger/Shadow/Duelist, right? And cyclone should be balanced around the crit right side not the RT side, right?

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Ceryneian a écrit :

There is also a reason why they made Atziri bosses invulnerable to status effects.

Yes, unfortunately, the line of thinking was apparently 'if you want to make something particularly challenging you make it immune to elemental statuses', you went for the counterargument there :)

The reason they nerfed statuses multiple times including the most recent one is they're triggered way too easily. And it doesn't even solve the issue, crit users will still be able to enough damage per hit to trigger strong effects, unlike non-crit, most likely.

I don't think crit should automatically trigger ele statuses either, the view actually has a decently sized following here, the whole thing makes very little sense from the balance standpoint.