nice abuse of vaal molten shell :)

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Natharias a écrit :

Actually, here's the order of the supports of greatest power:

Concentrated Effect

Elemental Proliferation

Iron Will

Added Chaos Damage

Added Lightning Damage

Added Cold Damage

Increased Duration

Elemental Proliferation would be good if Vaal Molten Shell had a chance to crit every time it proced, oddly it doesn't, I've been using it for awhile now (weeks) and I've never seen it crit.

Level 20 added chaos is 161–242 damage
Level 20 Fire Pen 35% less resistance (so roughly 35% more fire damage. You can lower resistance below 0% so this even applies to monsters with no fire res to begin with.)
Level 20 Vaal Molten shell is 1735–2602 fire damage
so Fire Pen would be roughly 600-900 more fire damage.

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SkyCore a écrit :

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Natharias a écrit :

Since when did the penetration gems work like penetration did in Diablo 2?

I dont remember the precise mechanics of D2 penetration but i can tell you poe has ALWAYS had penetration reduce your enemies resists(even well into the negative)

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BackWoodsS a écrit :

Pen works the same on zero or negative res as it does with positive res. It never has no effect.

Mostly true, but there is a circumstance where penetration will have zero apparent result; assuming a level 20 penetration(35% penetration) and your enemy is otherwise at or above 110% resistant(also assuming your enemy's resist cap is 75%, which it is for mobs).

According to the wiki this is not how it works. Penetration is not the same as lowered resistance (flammability curse) penetration takes your current applicable value up to your resistance cap (75%) and lowers that, so no matter how much raw resistance you have (100% 200% 500%) penetration is going to take your working value up to 75% and reduce that number, so if you have 20% res, you get dropped to -15%, if you have 75% you get dropped to 40%, if you have 1100% you still get lowered to 40%.

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Penetration

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Agashi a écrit :

Level 20 Fire Pen 35% less resistance (so roughly 35% more fire damage. You can lower resistance below 0% so this even applies to monsters with no fire res to begin with.)
Level 20 Vaal Molten shell is 1735–2602 fire damage
so Fire Pen would be roughly 600-900 more fire damage.

Worst case scenario(ignoring curses) and its 35% more, true.

You could also consider the situation when you have a level 20 molten shell with 300% spell damage also linked with a conc effect(69% more), while your enemy has 75% fire resists.
11728-17589 before fire resists/pen,
2931-4397 with resists factored in,
7036-10553 with resists and penetration,
=4105-6156 increase in damage using fire penetration...per trigger

Anyone who thinks added chaos/cold/lightning is better than penetration with molten shell really needs to go over the math.

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Agashi a écrit :

According to the wiki this is not how it works. Penetration is not the same as lowered resistance (flammability curse) penetration takes your current applicable value up to your resistance cap (75%) and lowers that, so no matter how much raw resistance you have (100% 200% 500%) penetration is going to take your working value up to 75% and reduce that number, so if you have 20% res, you get dropped to -15%, if you have 75% you get dropped to 40%, if you have 1100% you still get lowered to 40%.

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Penetration

You are in error. It does indeed lower resistance by the specified amount, except in the case where the target is overcapped on that resistance.
Examine the examples listed and you may see your error.

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SkyCore a écrit :

"

Agashi a écrit :

According to the wiki this is not how it works. Penetration is not the same as lowered resistance (flammability curse) penetration takes your current applicable value up to your resistance cap (75%) and lowers that, so no matter how much raw resistance you have (100% 200% 500%) penetration is going to take your working value up to 75% and reduce that number, so if you have 20% res, you get dropped to -15%, if you have 75% you get dropped to 40%, if you have 1100% you still get lowered to 40%.

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Penetration

You are in error. It does indeed lower resistance by the specified amount, except in the case where the target is overcapped on that resistance.
Examine the examples listed and you may see your error.

"Penetration is not the same as losing resistance, which changes the target's resistance value. Penetration does not modify the target's resistance, instead it treats it as lower than it is. This is important when considering a target that has stacked their resistance value past the maximum resistance cap of 75%."

The example given in the wiki (assumes 50% penetration)
The enemy has +150% Fire resistance, but is capped at their maximum fire resistance of 75%
This will result in an effective 25% fire resistance. The enemy will take 75 fire damage.

Penetration doesn't care how far over your cap you are, it ignores anything over your cap.

Are you disagreeing with the wiki, or saying I misinterpreted the statement made by the wiki?

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Agashi a écrit :

The example given in the wiki (assumes 50% penetration)
The enemy has +150% Fire resistance, but is capped at their maximum fire resistance of 75%
This will result in an effective 25% fire resistance. The enemy will take 75 fire damage.

Penetration doesn't care how far over your cap you are, it always treats your cap as the maximum value.

Are you disagreeing with the wiki, or saying I misinterpreted the statement made by the wiki?

I believe the entire page is in error on the wiki. We have no source for any of it though. So who knows.

If the wiki is correct than the optimal damage increase of penetration is 300% at resists 75%+(for the example 50% penetration). Which makes it even more powerful.

Anyone got a GGG source for penetration?

The only thing iv found which relates to it is somewhat ambiguous:

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Mark_GGG a écrit :

If you hit a monster, that hit treats fire resistance as lower than the actual value.

In my interpretation it simply subtracts the penetration value from the current enemy resist.

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SkyCore a écrit :

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Natharias a écrit :

Since when did the penetration gems work like penetration did in Diablo 2?

I dont remember the precise mechanics of D2 penetration but i can tell you poe has ALWAYS had penetration reduce your enemies resists(even well into the negative)

It must have been changed recently, because every time discussion about the mechanics of penetration, it would never penetrate resistances an enemy didn't have. If an enemy had 25% fire resistance but your fire penetration was greater, you would only get 25% out of the penetration.

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Agashi a écrit :

"

Natharias a écrit :

Actually, here's the order of the supports of greatest power:

Concentrated Effect

Elemental Proliferation

Iron Will

Added Chaos Damage

Added Lightning Damage

Added Cold Damage

Increased Duration

Elemental Proliferation would be good if Vaal Molten Shell had a chance to crit every time it proced, oddly it doesn't, I've been using it for awhile now (weeks) and I've never seen it crit.

Level 20 added chaos is 161–242 damage
Level 20 Fire Pen 35% less resistance (so roughly 35% more fire damage. You can lower resistance below 0% so this even applies to monsters with no fire res to begin with.)
Level 20 Vaal Molten shell is 1735–2602 fire damage
so Fire Pen would be roughly 600-900 more fire damage.

I just posted that Fire Penetration would come second in that list, just after Concentrated Effect.

As to the chance to ignite, any fire damage has a chance to ignite a target, and if even one target caught fire then the rest would too. This is why you have Elemental Proliferation in place instead of Chance to Ignite or Critical Strikes. So what if half of them catch fire? It only takes one to light the entire room up with EP.

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Natharias a écrit :

It must have been changed recently, because every time discussion about the mechanics of penetration, it would never penetrate resistances an enemy didn't have. If an enemy had 25% fire resistance but your fire penetration was greater, you would only get 25% out of the penetration.

I dont think you should believe every discussion you have read about ANYTHING.
The source of my information goes back to 2012, in the 'fire penetration support gem' thread on the skills forum. And Mark_GGG is likely the second most reliable source of information about PoE in the universe.

Fire pen will come in first priority for the reasons iv already stated: fire pen is most effective when its skill would otherwise be least effective.

To illustrate the power of penetration i think you need an example to truly grasp it.
For these examples we will use a nice even number that easy to modify. 1000 damage molten shell, 35% fire penetration, 69% more damage conc effect.
case 1: molten shell vs a 75% resistant enemy with conc effect= 1690 *.25 = 422 damage total
case 2: molten shell vs a 75% resistant enemy with fire pen= 1000* (.25 + .35) = 600 damage total
case 3: molten shell vs a 75% resistant enemy with jack shit= 1000 *.25 = 250 damage total

Do you notice how vastly superior fire pen is now?

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Natharias a écrit :

I just posted that Fire Penetration would come second in that list, just after Concentrated Effect.

As to the chance to ignite, any fire damage has a chance to ignite a target, and if even one target caught fire then the rest would too. This is why you have Elemental Proliferation in place instead of Chance to Ignite or Critical Strikes. So what if half of them catch fire? It only takes one to light the entire room up with EP.

The problem is Vaal Molten Shell is very unlikely to ignite(unless you have chance to ignite passive/support or a very high crit chance) it only has 1 chance to crit every time you cast it, it does not roll crit every time it deals damage, but only once right when you cast it. I have never seen it crit in the weeks I have been using it. So unless you have passive ignite/are also using the chance to ignite support gem, Ele Prolif is a complete waste.