Passive Tree: Weapon Specialization Disparity

"

RagnarokChu a écrit :

You could stop ignoring what the post is obviously trying to say.

Your arguing that swords are the best in the game with obviously many builds choose many other weapons for different reasons because not everyone makes a life/physical damage build with a shield.

If you aren't going life, you can still use swords with CI. Not relevant at all.

If you aren't going physical damage, you're either crit or elemental damage. Swords are the best for elemental damage builds because of the inherent highest attack speed. Crit builds use a dagger, but are typically caster builds not crit melee. Wands are also a caster item, that can be used like a bow. They aren't even in the same category as swords. You're basically comparing bows and spells to swords.

"

RagnarokChu a écrit :

You can explain to me that swords are the best for certain builds because of attack speed or w/e but that has nothing to do with sword nodes within the game itself. It's simply because the weapon is a stat stick that can acquire 2.0 aps, which yet again has nothing to do with the sword nodes.

Ah, NOW I know what you're trying to say here.

Yes, the passive tree having more sword nodes basically only affects how well it does as a physical damage weapon. But again, having more sword nodes does make it the easiest weapon to build around for a physical based melee build. Swords are still winning there.

"

Legatus1982 a écrit :

"

RagnarokChu a écrit :

You could stop ignoring what the post is obviously trying to say.

Your arguing that swords are the best in the game with obviously many builds choose many other weapons for different reasons because not everyone makes a life/physical damage build with a shield.

If you aren't going life, you can still use swords with CI. Not relevant at all.

If you aren't going physical damage, you're either crit or elemental damage. Swords are the best for elemental damage builds because of the inherent highest attack speed. Crit builds use a dagger, but are typically caster builds not crit melee. Wands are also a caster item, that can be used like a bow. They aren't even in the same category as swords. You're basically comparing bows and spells to swords.

Okay the post is about sword NODES verse other nodes in the tree, we are not accounting for the STATS on the weapon type itself.

Nobody uses sword nodes in CI builds. There are almost no sword efficient nodes around the CI area.

There are tons of physical damage builds that do not use swords nodes, some of the most popular ones are groundslammers.

"

Ah, NOW I know what you're trying to say here.

Yes, the passive tree having more sword nodes basically only affects how well it does as a physical damage weapon. But again, having more sword nodes does make it the easiest weapon to build around for a physical based melee build. Swords are still winning there.

Sword wins because if your going for the most "easy" physical based melee builds but almost all later game builds drop swords.

"

RagnarokChu a écrit :

"

Legatus1982 a écrit :

"

RagnarokChu a écrit :

You could stop ignoring what the post is obviously trying to say.

Your arguing that swords are the best in the game with obviously many builds choose many other weapons for different reasons because not everyone makes a life/physical damage build with a shield.

If you aren't going life, you can still use swords with CI. Not relevant at all.

If you aren't going physical damage, you're either crit or elemental damage. Swords are the best for elemental damage builds because of the inherent highest attack speed. Crit builds use a dagger, but are typically caster builds not crit melee. Wands are also a caster item, that can be used like a bow. They aren't even in the same category as swords. You're basically comparing bows and spells to swords.

Okay the post is about sword NODES verse other nodes in the tree, we are not accounting for the STATS on the weapon type itself.

Nobody uses sword nodes in CI builds. There are almost no sword efficient nodes around the CI area.

There are tons of physical damage builds that do not use swords nodes, some of the most popular ones are groundslammers.

Yes, and some of the other popular ones are cleave. CI builds not having sword nodes nearby is just as much an issue for any other weapon as it is for swords. These aren't arguments as much as they are deflections.

And again, the passive tree has the most nodes for swords making it the most efficient melee physical weapon in terms of the passive tree.

In every single case swords are the best option, you only use other weapons for niche builds because you REALLY WANT to use that weapon (not because it's the most efficient build), or because you're groundslamming. If you aren't doing one of these two things, then you can't use swords anyways because you're a caster/ranged/etc build.

It's the most efficient statistically for life/acc/pdamage builds that are on the south side of the tree, this isn't counting in possible items or skills.

I mean for example what are the most popular/best items in terms of unique?

Axe:
Soul Taker
Dyadus (if you want a cheepo edamage build, was op as hell for cleave)

2h:
Kaom's Primacy
Atziri's Disfavour
Wings of Entropy

Claw:
Bloodseeker really unless your a caster build, Claws are super expensive anyway because hard to find specific type you need.

Dagger:
Bino's Kitchen Knife (rest are specific build items)

Mace:
1h tons of utility/caster items
2h: Marohi Erqi/Kong

Sword:
All shit expect for redbeak for low life, Aurumvorax/Ephemeral Edge for RF builds.

Even if swords are the most efficient they get replaced with 1h daggers for the same builds once your super rich which have much better efficient nodes once you have equipment to back it up.

If your talking waaaaayyy later on the game when you have 2h weapon BIS items, the most popular mirror items are 2h axes/maces anyway.

I like how we totally ignore the fact that different weapons have different average attack speeds, different base damages, different implicits, different compatible skills, different uniques and different critical hit rates.

This thread The reaver sword. 817.86 Pure Physical DPS.

You're telling me, that someone would swap from that?


Or from this?

Or from this?

You keep talking about Unique Items. Unique items are by far, not the end all, be all, of what people use to deal damage in the super late game. And if you look at my post, I was speaking specifically, about 2h'd in the opening statement.

The simple point, I was trying to make is as follows:

If you are building a spec, with which you are planning to build around a weapon, the passive tree is far more efficient in it's DPS / EH / Survivability layout for swords when compared to other 2h'd weapons. There are more nodes. There are more Hybrid survivability nodes as well, meaning that you can, make a more efficient passive tree with higher +Life and DPS when using a sword, as compared to Axes, Maces, and Staves.

And it's not even close.

You even list a 2h'd Axe, that as of the time I'm writing this post, NO ONE has in game. And it will be a LONG time, before most people even see someone else walking around town with it on.

This game, is not designed around Uniques being the end all be all of end game weaponry. Why is mirror service such a big deal for 2h'd weapons? Because the difference, between any of those weapons listed in the posts that I mentioned, and the best 2h'd weapon that I own:



Is monumental. And I would take my 2h'd weapon over a Marohi, or Kong's any day of the week, and twice on sunday, because the effects on those weapons do not work with the build that I play.

"

shoju a écrit :

This thread The reaver sword. 817.86 Pure Physical DPS.

You're telling me, that someone would swap from that?


Or from this?

Or from this?

You keep talking about Unique Items. Unique items are by far, not the end all, be all, of what people use to deal damage in the super late game. And if you look at my post, I was speaking specifically, about 2h'd in the opening statement.

The simple point, I was trying to make is as follows:

If you are building a spec, with which you are planning to build around a weapon, the passive tree is far more efficient in it's DPS / EH / Survivability layout for swords when compared to other 2h'd weapons. There are more nodes. There are more Hybrid survivability nodes as well, meaning that you can, make a more efficient passive tree with higher +Life and DPS when using a sword, as compared to Axes, Maces, and Staves.

And it's not even close.

You even list a 2h'd Axe, that as of the time I'm writing this post, NO ONE has in game. And it will be a LONG time, before most people even see someone else walking around town with it on.

This game, is not designed around Uniques being the end all be all of end game weaponry. Why is mirror service such a big deal for 2h'd weapons? Because the difference, between any of those weapons listed in the posts that I mentioned, and the best 2h'd weapon that I own:

Is monumental. And I would take my 2h'd weapon over a Marohi, or Kong's any day of the week, and twice on sunday, because the effects on those weapons do not work with the build that I play.

You post about some BIS 2h swords without checking out all of the other mirror mauls/axes/ect and the fact that most 2h builds would be spectral throwing (they want bigger base damage) groundslam marauder or cyclone that don't favor swords.

You link be your best 2h weapon which is a maul.

I showed you unique weapons to show you that swords being most efficient only matter in the lower super budget range, after that swords are used much less unless you have a specialize reason to only exactly use a sword (the high attack speed).

What are you going to purpose? We buff all of the other nodes so nobody ever uses a sword nodes unless we need the attack speed? Nerf sword nodes so swords become unless other then builds that use the attack speed?

Your talking everything about how swords nodes statistically are better for exactly 1 type of play but it doesn't show in actual practice to be that case.

My linking to the BIS rares, was in response to the "Well, they just leave swords later anyway" response that was given.


My best 2h'd weapon is a Maul. Why?

because in Domination, I played a 2h'd Spectral Throw MACE Scion.

I sold the Swords. I sold the Axes. yes. There are plenty of mirror worthy mauls and axes.

And I'm here to tell you. If you are playing a build that is 2h'd, and physical based, and are not using a skill that would limit you from using a sword, you are being less efficient, by using something other than a sword. That includes Spectral Throw. I've done an awful lot of research into spec throw, and did very respectable with such a build during Domination.

Spectral Throw, is better with more Attack Speed. They were, point for point, the best damage nodes. In the old tree, I ended up taking all of the %Damage + %ASP nodes that worked with Maces, as well as berserking, as well as the generic 2h'ers. It was just simply the best source of dps increase.

My 2h'd Spec Throw would have been better as a Sword build than a mace build, even during domination. 1.1 just further made the issue more apparent, by stripping away the only other 2h'd weapon nodes that had +Life % Attached to them. I went with maces, because Merciless Hillock dropped this, and a Yolo Exalt + 20% later, it was a 425 DPS weapon.



It's not currently 20% Qualitied, because I am / was in the process of 5L ing for my aforementioned Marauder in Standard, as it is a DPS upgrade for him over the



That he's currently using.


It's not just "one type of play" that swords passives are better for. If you are playing something physical damage based, especially in 2h'ers, and aren't using a skill the precludes you from using it, Swords are by far, the most passive node efficient weapon to use for the build.

What is my solution? More parity between the passive nodes. If you're going to give Sword's the vast opportunities at life % baked into hybrid nodes, then give it to all the 2h'd weapon specs. Heck, give it to all weapons. Look at Wands, and Staves.

Or, remove it from all of them. They stripped maces of it in 1.1 Remove it from Bows, swords, daggers, and call it a day. Looking at 2h'd weapons, and trying to build EH Efficient, and realizing that one weapon spec vastly trumps the rest, is disheartening. I didn't "want" to go swords with my ranger. But, I have designs on reaching 90, and having a shot at killing Atziri in Ambush. That means:

I need to die less.
I need to have the most efficient pathing possible.
I need to have the most efficient tree that I possibly can. Eeking out the most DPS, HP, Armor, etc... as I can from the tree.

The best weapon for the job, is a sword.

I have other "types" of characters. I have a summoner, I have a Fireball Witch. I have my ST Scion, I have a HS / LS 'rauder. I have a DW Ranger, I have an ele shadow.

But my heart, will always lie in big dumb 2h'd weapons, smashing people in the face. In every game I've ever played, I've played melee, or tank, and whenever possible I play with 2h'ers.

In WoW, I was an Arms Warrior / Prot Warrior, then a Prot Paladin, then a Death Knight. The DK is where I found my home for the last 2 years I played the game. 2h'd tank, DW DPS. It's my thing.

There was a reason that in WoW PVP Rogues went Mace Spec, and PVE Rogues went Sword Spec. There was a reason that Warriors went Mace Spec PvP, and Sword Spec PVE.
There was also a reason that WoW scrapped Weapon specs.

I understand that this isn't WoW. But I see the same type of glaring inconsistencies in this tree, that were found in the weapon specs of that game. There is a clear pecking order.

"

shoju a écrit :

It's not just "one type of play" that swords passives are better for. If you are playing something physical damage based, especially in 2h'ers, and aren't using a skill the precludes you from using it, Swords are by far, the most passive node efficient weapon to use for the build.

What is my solution? More parity between the passive nodes. If you're going to give Sword's the vast opportunities at life % baked into hybrid nodes, then give it to all the 2h'd weapon specs. Heck, give it to all weapons. Look at Wands, and Staves.

I'm going to focus on the two most important parts of your posts.

So if you are playing something exactly physical damage base, in 2h, with certain skill and builds that work well with swords. The swords the most passive node efficient weapon to use?

This is the problem with how your trying to balance it, your trying to make it more WoW like of homogenizing it is because that you have a lack of options in your exact way you play you want more options by making other options to be the same as yours.

The 2h axe/mace nodes are around different nodes that focus on different things which such Armour and useless stuff such as stun threshold reduction and stuff. Sword are the most efficient if you are purely only focusing on pdamage/acc/hp% with a type of playsytle that also needs a sword or the specific properties of the sword weapon type.

The reason why swords are more efficient is because they give exact properties that are desirable while mauls/axes give properties that need to be built around or secondary properties such as being right next to RT and blah.

If we nerf swords we aren't doing anything productive, and if we just straight up buff the other nodes they'll completely outclass swords because they'll have the secondary benefits for free on top of swords.

Also all of the changes to the nodes in general happen after 1.1 of the skill tree rechanged, they buffed swords super late on because nobody used them in the form of nodes. Problem with games such as this is that when you have more then one option for something people will pick the thing that is even 1% better, so only way to change that is to allow it offer other effects that the 1% better one does not offer. All of benefits of swords for 1h doesn't matter because you can just use a wand or dagger if your talking about pure application use of them + nodes as oppose to the nodes itself.

Also if your trying to beat the new content you actually need to be able to run double purity auras which has nothing to do with the weapon nodes ;v