Shadow's Dual Wield AoE

Shadow could use some changes in the skill gem reward department in the early game. If you want to make a dual wielding Shadow, you will pick the Dual Strike from the Enemy At The Gates. You won't get another chance to have the skill, so you must get it there. This leaves you without AoE skill until you do Mercy Mission or Breaking Some Eggs, which both take quite some time to do. Before one of those quests, it is incredibly tedious and slow to go forward with just Dual Strike having no AoE skill.

What I suggest is to also offer Dual Strike as quest reward from Mercy Mission instead of Detonate Dead. This way you can use Double Strike and Reave until Mercy Mission, after which you can start using Dual Strike instead of Double Strike for single target purposes.

I'd also love to see another chance to pick Reave as Shadow, though it wouldn't be necessary anymore if the suggested change above were to be put in effect.

Currently Shadow Dual Wielders lack a solid physical AoE skill, since they have to skip Reave for Dual Strike. Other AoE options become Detonate Dead, Fire Trap and Whirling Blades. Detonate Dead damage is too low and doesn't synergize in any way with the physical/DW nodes. Fire Trap is very good but does not synergize either. Whirling Blades damage is bit too low and the skill desyncs a lot making it unreliable as primary AoE damage source. Ethereal Knives doesn't have any synergy with DW either and getting it would cross out Whirling Blades, which is almost a must being an excellent escape mechanism for the squishy DW Shadow.

Melee Splash in Dual Strike may be efficient enough synergizing well too. The only problem with it is that it is a strength gem, requiring increasing amount of strength when leveled and obviously also the red socket linked to the Dual Strike. And the gem is a reward quite late, halfway to act 2. All this makes it a bit awkward and something I'd rather look at as a little bit more specific build. Not something to recommend for everyone as their primary source of DW AoE damage.

Overall, I'd say we could use a new Dexterity AoE skill gem designed having the Dual Wielders in mind. Currently Shadow Dual Wielders have no proper synergizing primary physical AoE skill, unless the suggested change above comes to effect and Reave becomes an option. Even then, an alternative for Reave would be in place just to have some variety.

Ironically, shadow HAS NO dual wield aoe. It simply doesn't exist.

If you want to use AOE with the shadow's natural weapons (daggers, claws) your only option without melee splash is to use reave, which is not only a terrible poorly balanced and poorly designed skill, it doesn't benefit from dual wielding at all. It's great with a dagger/claw and a shield though, thanks GGG.

Most people would probably just roll another shadow and mule the gem over, but I think it's kind of bullshit how the other weapon setups all have natural dual wield or 2h aoe for their shieldless setups and shadows get restricted to having a shield because reave is fail.

You know it takes like, less than 5 minutes to run the length of the beach at level 1 and kill hillock right? And that you can transfer gems between characters... right?

Not all classes can be good at everything; if you're rolling a melee character you especially be aware that it's not an easy road to take - all classes have their stat deficiencies, with experience you learn to deal with it.

All relevant classes get melee splash at around the same time considering it is a level 19 gem, don't see any problem here.

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Legatus1982 a écrit :

Ironically, shadow HAS NO dual wield aoe. It simply doesn't exist.

If you want to use AOE with the shadow's natural weapons (daggers, claws) your only option without melee splash is to use reave, which is niche.

Fixed that for you.

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Zeekin a écrit :

You know it takes like, less than 5 minutes to run the length of the beach at level 1 and kill hillock right? And that you can transfer gems between characters... right?

Not all classes can be good at everything; if you're rolling a melee character you especially be aware that it's not an easy road to take - all classes have their stat deficiencies, with experience you learn to deal with it.

All relevant classes get melee splash at around the same time considering it is a level 19 gem, don't see any problem here.

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Legatus1982 a écrit :

Ironically, shadow HAS NO dual wield aoe. It simply doesn't exist.

If you want to use AOE with the shadow's natural weapons (daggers, claws) your only option without melee splash is to use reave, which is niche.

Fixed that for you.

Touche, I have seen it work. It doesn't suck as much as say, poison arrow I suppose. Although, reave isn't a dual wield option. It's a single wield option.

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Zeekin a écrit :

You know it takes like, less than 5 minutes to run the length of the beach at level 1 and kill hillock right? And that you can transfer gems between characters... right?

Of course. I just don't find this a good approach to such easily solveable problem by making the one adjustment I suggested. Swap Detonate Dead with Dual Strike in Mercy Mission rewards. Much more elegant and practical solution. This would also give DW Shadows a chance in races.

Also, like I mentioned, a new, well designed AoE Dexterity gem for melee, especially DW, would be in it's place. Not like it is a must, but something that would certainly improve Shadow DW (and possibly other classes) playing experience.

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Zeekin a écrit :

Not all classes can be good at everything; if you're rolling a melee character you especially be aware that it's not an easy road to take - all classes have their stat deficiencies, with experience you learn to deal with it.

Sure. But I think there is no reason why Shadow should not be good at melee. Most of it's starting area is dedicated to melee and asking for a single AoE skill for him that synergizes with it isn't unreasonable. His weakness is being very fragile. I see no reason to limit it's AoE skills to make it even harder for Shadows.

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Zeekin a écrit :

All relevant classes get melee splash at around the same time considering it is a level 19 gem, don't see any problem here.

I already talked about Melee Splash. It is a strength support gem you get at level 19. Getting your primary AoE half way through Act 2 isn't very pleasant either. It's also the only stat Shadow lacks on and his primary AoE shouldn't rely on strength, when he obviously is in the dexterity/intelligence part of the tree. That is just too weird design and I bet it is not even designed to be the primary AoE of DW Shadows in the first place. Just something you can experiment with.

I understand your points but you are missing mine. Currently it is completely possible to make DW Shadow and have decent AoE with it, but what I am after here is that it is currently not designed very well. It could use some redesigns for more smooth and elegant play. I am just suggesting. This is not the end of the world, nor biggest issues currently with the game, but just something that could easily enhance the playing experience if taken little look at.

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TuhkaaSuussa a écrit :

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Zeekin a écrit :

You know it takes like, less than 5 minutes to run the length of the beach at level 1 and kill hillock right? And that you can transfer gems between characters... right?

Of course. I just don't find this a good approach to such easily solveable problem by making the one adjustment I suggested. Swap Detonate Dead with Dual Strike in Mercy Mission rewards. Much more elegant and practical solution. This would also give DW Shadows a chance in races.

Also, like I mentioned, a new, well designed AoE Dexterity gem for melee, especially DW, would be in it's place. Not like it is a must, but something that would certainly improve Shadow DW (and possibly other classes) playing experience.

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Zeekin a écrit :

Not all classes can be good at everything; if you're rolling a melee character you especially be aware that it's not an easy road to take - all classes have their stat deficiencies, with experience you learn to deal with it.

Sure. But I think there is no reason why Shadow should not be good at melee. Most of it's starting area is dedicated to melee and asking for a single AoE skill for him that synergizes with it isn't unreasonable. His weakness is being very fragile. I see no reason to limit it's AoE skills to make it even harder for Shadows.

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Zeekin a écrit :

All relevant classes get melee splash at around the same time considering it is a level 19 gem, don't see any problem here.

I already talked about Melee Splash. It is a strength support gem you get at level 19. Getting your primary AoE half way through Act 2 isn't very pleasant either. It's also the only stat Shadow lacks on and his primary AoE shouldn't rely on strength, when he obviously is in the dexterity/intelligence part of the tree. That is just too weird design and I bet it is not even designed to be the primary AoE of DW Shadows in the first place. Just something you can experiment with.

I understand your points but you are missing mine. Currently it is completely possible to make DW Shadow and have decent AoE with it, but what I am after here is that it is currently not designed very well. It could use some redesigns for more smooth and elegant play. I am just suggesting. This is not the end of the world, nor biggest issues currently with the game, but just something that could easily enhance the playing experience if taken little look at.

People keep using melee splash as some example of balanced aoe ability. Sorry, using 2 gems to do the job of 1 isn't balanced aoe ability. And since reave clearly doesn't work well with dual wielding, I feel like GGG is just taking another shit on shadows when they made that skill. There's no reason it can't be allowed to work with dual wielding for a 30 or 40% penalty, like cleave does.

By the way, and this is sort of semantics, but dex gems are technically ranger gems. Shadow gems are int/dex based. Of course at the end of the day any character can use any gem, but it shows some design intentions when they selected the stat requirements.

Also your points about melee splash being a level 19 str gem are very relevant. GGG simply just doesn't give a shit about balancing their game is what I've seen tbh.

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Legatus1982 a écrit :

And since reave clearly doesn't work well with dual wielding [...]

I haven't Dual Wielded too much with Reave, so can't say for too certain, but for me it felt quite okay. DW has quite fast attack speed, so the stacks grow fast.

I'd rather address the issue first that Dual Strike is mutually exclusive with Reave, so we can't even get it in the first place.

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TuhkaaSuussa a écrit :

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Legatus1982 a écrit :

And since reave clearly doesn't work well with dual wielding [...]

I haven't Dual Wielded too much with Reave, so can't say for too certain, but for me it felt quite okay. DW has quite fast attack speed, so the stacks grow fast.

I'd rather address the issue first that Dual Strike is mutually exclusive with Reave, so we can't even get it in the first place.

It's quite easy to mule either gem over since they are both normal hillock rewards.

The major issue I have is that dual wielding daggers or claws still doesn't have viable aoe options. You CAN dual wield and use reave, but it's just pointless to do so when you can get a shield and do roughly the same damage for a drastically improved defensive profile. And melee splash+dual strike is pretty much the same thing: you CAN use it, but it's far from ideal to do so when you can just grab two swords and use cleave instead, getting nearly the same damage output from 1 gem as you would with two.

Good points Legatus.

I know that it is easy to get the Reave with Dual Strike by making new character and transferring the gem through stash, but I don't think this is the right way to go.

Bump.

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Legatus1982 a écrit :

...but it's far from ideal to do so when you can just grab two swords and use cleave instead, getting nearly the same damage output from 1 gem as you would with two.

You think its nearly the same damage output huh? Have you tried using cleave and dual wield+melee splash on the same character?
All the toons i have created were melee (except one shadow bow, who i stopped playing cause range is cheap), 4 of them were DW (dual strike+MS) and in 1 of them i tried to run cleave.
DS+MS out damages cleave in every aspect. Even cleave+concentrated effect is worse than the first mentioned option.
The thing is, not only shadow (and i play shadows almost exclusively) but every dual wield build has no other (viable) option besides DS+MS.
Every gem that can be used with DW, simply alternates between weapons to attack (poor design, lacking variety), making them simply better used with either two handed or one handed + shield.

P.S. Shadow tree is in serious need of buffing/alteration (just like they did with marauder starter area).