Fire CoC Vortex with Combustion gem?

Hello,

First of all, I haven't played poe for a year but I'm back for the moment.


I know there are a lot of forum threads about CoC+Vortex with pyre ring but I believe that some (probably many) seem to be wrong and I've to ask my questions here.

Main question: Vortex DoT gets buffed from spell damage so that spell damage modifiers double dip. What about other modifiers? Ele, area? Does the ignite damage double dip with "increased fire damage" when vortex is used with the legacy pyre ring (100% cold to fire)?

CoC Vortex builds typically use legacy pyre ring to achieve ignite. I've many passive nodes giving increased ele, fire and area damage. Do they double dip for the ignnite damage? Does Combustion gem bonus double dip on the ignite damage? I'm asking because the combustion gem does not have any "spell" tag but only "fire, support" tags.

What I don't like about the typical CoC+Vortex+Cyclone+Controlled destruction setup is the last Controlled destruction gem which "also" lowers Cyclone's crit chance. Cyclone is neither spell nor ele but it suffers from the controlled destruction. A really bad design in my opinion.

My current 6L vortex is:

CoC+Cyclone+Vortex+Conc/Inc area+added cold damage+fire penetration

I know that added cold damge and fire penetrations are really atypical and I know that they don't double dip on ignite damage. In my opinion, fire penetration is better than controlled destruction which hurts the spell crit chacne of both cyclone and vortex. What I'm thinking now is to replace added cold damage with combustion instead.

Thank you all for all the answers and comments. All appreciated.

I've done some Vortex calculations myself removing all the gear except Tabula Rasa and looking at the damage bonuses coming just from the passive tree.

The ground effect's damage increases with "other" modifiers (cold, area, ele) and "not just" with spell damage. The gem explanation is really misleading. I am led to the assumption that the other modifiers will double dip the vortex ignite damage when pyre is equipped.

Looking at the support gems now, I notice "Efficacy Support" with both more spell damage and more DoT. Does efficacy then triple dip?

What about the following options

CoC+Cyclone+Vortex+Conc/Inc area+combustion+efficacy support
CoC+Cyclone+Vortex+Conc/Inc area+combustion+fire penetration

build mechanics and logic opts fore efficacy more multipliers instead of fire penetration. However, fire penetration gem should better against high tier or end game bosses. I'm in dilemma now because I've already have some fire penetration (31% from tree and 20-25% from Wise oak) and the question becomes: Given 51-56% penetration already, is efficacy better than fire penetration? It should be and I'll opt for combustion+efficacy setup now.

Time for chroming again the 6L shav again :( Fortunately, that setup is easy to chrome.

what do you mean "double dip"? They certainly dont do anything like that. And ignite/bleed/poison no longer depends on initial hit, it scales off base damage instead

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Ludvator a écrit :

what do you mean "double dip"? They certainly dont do anything like that. And ignite/bleed/poison no longer depends on initial hit, it scales off base damage instead

Vortex has a unique DoT modifier.

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Varvarel a écrit :

Vortex has a unique DoT modifier.

Right, but that modifier doesn't enable double dipping in any meaningful way. It doesn't cause an additional multiplier, it only changes what modifiers are allowed to stack onto the existing "x% increased damage" multiplier.

Example - suppose Vortex deals
101 damage on hit and
99 damage per second for the ground DOT. You have
100% cold to fire conversion,
50% increased elemental damage,
40% increased cold damage,
30% increased fire damage,
20% increased damage over time, and
10% increased spell damage.

WITHOUT the unique modifier,
Hit deals 101 * (1 + .5 + .4 + .3 + .1) damage,
Ignite deals 101 * 0.5 * (1 + .5 + .4 + .3 + .2),
Ground effect deals 99 * (1 + .5 + .4 + .2).

WITH the unique modifier the .1 simply gets tacked onto the Ground DOT portion, for:
Hit deals 101 * (1 + .5 + .4 + .3 + .1) damage,
Ignite deals 101 * 0.5 * (1 + .5 + .4 + .3 + .2),
Ground effect deals 99 * (1 + .5 + .4 + .2 + .1).

EDIT2: fixed Ignite base and the fact that Vortex no longer games the system.

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adghar a écrit :

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Varvarel a écrit :

Vortex has a unique DoT modifier.

Right, but that modifier doesn't enable double dipping in any meaningful way. It doesn't cause an additional multiplier, it only changes what modifiers are allowed to stack onto the existing "x% increased damage" multiplier...

(explicit calculations on an example)...

Right, you and I are speaking of the same DoT vortex mechanics but I've believe that you haven't thought of "more" modifier. More vs. increased aka. multiplicative vs. additive. In my current 6L setup:

CoC+Cyclone+Vortex+Conc/Inc area+combustion+efficacy support

All the CoC, Conc. area, efficacy provide "more spell" damage. Moreover, efficacy provides extra bonus to double its double dipping (kind of triple dipping there). The remaining gem combustion explicitly states "more fire" but not "more spell". Based on ground looking effects, I'm putting my faith into that combustion double dips as well.


Anyway, the ultimate test will be high end bosses. I'm still worried that a setup with fire penetration gem will perform better. My current ignites seem still weak despite its (speculative) bonuses (I also got low life and herald of ash modifiers).

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Abdiel_Kavash a écrit :

You should probably explain what you mean by "double dipping", as there is no double dipping going on in your setup in the way it is generally understood (i.e. the same modifier applying to some stat twice).

Adghar has put an explicit example already with numbers. His example shows double dipping.

Again, a "more Y spell damage" modifier double dips. Excluding all the other bonuses (fire, ele, cold, more burning, area) the damage calculation for ignite is:


Base hit * (1+Y) (standard modifier) * Ignite factor (0.2 or 0.5) * (1+Y) (Vortex DoT extra modifier).

The second (1+Y) factor comes from the vortex mechanics. That's the double dipping I've argued about.

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Abdiel_Kavash a écrit :

The line in the description of Vortex specifically refers to the ground DoT area that the skill leaves behind, not to any other DoT effect that the skill potentially applies.

Crap, I forgot about that change, too.

Volatile game around here :P