Adding Glancing Hits for Evasion Based Characters

OP: Wouldn't EVA just be a different flavour of armour then?

Right now its
Armour: Mitigate all hits somewhat.
Eva: Prevent many hits, but don't mitigate those that do land.

You want
Eva: Prevent many hits and mitigate some of those that do land.
Now either that just makes it "better EVA" or "better armour".

That said, I do agree with the people who say EVA alone doesn't cut it. You are still going to get one-shot regularly without any mitigation.

Thing is what my thoughts boil down to is that when taking armour/evasion/ES, only tw of the three have full viability endgame.

Armour with Iron Reflexes and Unwavering Stance would be the armour extreme. Stacking ES with Ci is the ES extreme. Both of these allow you to build in such a way that you can withstand bigger would-be-oneshots than EVA.

Granted, the endgame has been shaped and balanced after the existing power creep. I'd just like to see changes to EVA to make it more viable to the actual threats which are the oneshots, it's all. As it is EVA is so penalized to take to the extreme compared to other extremes.

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Umadia a écrit :

Thing is what my thoughts boil down to is that when taking armour/evasion/ES, only tw of the three have full viability endgame.

Armour with Iron Reflexes and Unwavering Stance would be the armour extreme. Stacking ES with Ci is the ES extreme. Both of these allow you to build in such a way that you can withstand bigger would-be-oneshots than EVA.

Granted, the endgame has been shaped and balanced after the existing power creep. I'd just like to see changes to EVA to make it more viable to the actual threats which are the oneshots, it's all. As it is EVA is so penalized to take to the extreme compared to other extremes.

Going 100% armour with nothing else will not make you tanky enough to just comfortably run in hard content and facetank it all, it just will not, you will just die in high content this way (unless you run maps white maybe ...).

That first sentence of yours there is honestly very wrong.
Evasion is only not viable in the forums, it's actually very powerful, and with Acro it makes it very cheap way to reach a certain tankyness threshold before adding other mechanics.

About CI ... it's not what it used to be, I'm not saying that it's not viable to go 100% ES because it obviously is with the current powercreep + leech ( and occultist ).



There is no one shot out of the blue for eva either unless you really messed up your character, remains big telegraphed hits .... which are lethal on purpose.


PS : ES and EV/AR do not work the same way at all, comparing them one to another without looking at the big picture makes very little sense.
The former is a buffer, and the laters are mitigation layers.

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鬼殺し a écrit :

Thats also part of the problem. It is positioned as a main defence layer but isn't worth investing in. Otoh it is indeed great as a side ingredient.

Actually, armour does work the same way kind of :
- having a bit of it ( 5~10k ) makes a big difference, even in high level content, it really does
- having armour only is not enough, not on its own.
Now, one of the big differences is that armour is located in the "tankyness" part of the tree, where the tanky ascendancies are.
Which means that characters using armour are in fact not purely relying on armour, people often have EC / extra % mitigation / block / spell black / some other damage reduction mechanics, etc ...

Where evasion ... does not have all those things, it does have only a few on its own ( well ... it has acro, some uniques like Kintsugi are not too bad either ).
I think that evasion is supposed to have speed coupled to it, and it's easier to find speed on that part of the tree too, but people have somewhat easily permanent flask uptime (hi quicksilver) and well ... everybody is quick anyway nowadays, so that it one thing "less" for evasion.
Maybe having a mechanic that would increase your movement speed temporarily after you evade ? Then all racers would be running with it ....

I honestly think that evasion is more or less fine where it is at the moment, some new content additions however ... are more questionnable ( @the incursion monsters throwing quite heavy physical things at your face that you just can't seem to evade for example .... )


About hard counter and boss immunities ... well those should go imho ( at least for 'main' bosses ), some already have ( Atziri for example, right ? )

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SisterBlister a écrit :

You are still going to get one-shot regularly without any mitigation.

Oh please ... stop with this nonsense again.
NO, you are NOT going to get "one-shot" regularly even in high content ( unless telegraphed hit of course, which should be like this ) in high content.
This is just spreading misinformation at this point.
What you could die to, is a very quick succession of hard-enough hits, the same way people stacking buffer and nothing else can die too ( Check one of the recent Alkeizer ( not sure about the spelling ) rip, from a molten striker ).
But that only applies if you do not know the limits of your character and try to tank what it just cannot tank.

Could a really hard hitting mob with 200+% elemental damage added ( map mods ) one shot you if you have 5k buffer in red maps (pure evasion build, evasion only) ?
Potentially, but you have 5k buffer in red maps, and that is not enough to run such maps ( there might be special builds involving other defensive mechancs that could be alright there, not sure, but usually ... nop ).
Would an armoured character have survived that same hit with 5k with only armour ? Likely not, he would probably die the same way, only faster than you potentially because he would actually be weaker overall to those added dmg mods.

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Jackalope_Gaming a écrit :

Huh, it's been a while since I've seen Lightning Coil seriously used, but that does raise a significant point about Evasion that was often mentioned in the past: You absolutely must have mitigation on top of the evasion or other avoidance mechanics. In LC's case it mitigates physical damage by splitting some of it into lightning which gets taken down by resistance.

And that's what it's balanced (roughly) around. The game isn't built where you can stack only a single kind of defense and get everything you want from it, nor should it be.

ya, theres a reason lightning coil and toh were nerfed, theyre absolutely insane.

I was playing around on a standard league evasion melee the other day, its still equipped, its called 'Fat_Dorothy' in my profile. Legacy coil and toh, I just did some quick maths on how much physical damage reduction that character has in the most extreme situation. So were talking about all my endurance charges up, both mitigation flasks popped, my pantheon buffs up, the full monty...

Its got 82% peek physical damage reduction, and thats static, it doesnt scale down like armour, its essentially 82% peek physical resistance = 1,800 damage taken from a 10k pure physical hit. Imo thats absurd.

This is on an evasion character who has 20k evasion, 25% more chance to evade, 40/30 dodge, 7200 life, 5.6% life regen, fully committed dagger crit melee with 2.4% life leech + vitality void leech buffs, its got some amount of block, probably somewhere in the upper teens, it blinds enemies, even landing a hit on it in the first place is not an easy task.



Even a post nerf coil and toh are so strong I wouldnt make a serious full ev character without them unless we were looking at evasion + ci or maybe evasion + kaoms heart.



I think once you start really looking at options like this for evasion builds they start to become hugely tanky, for a melee build theyre often more tanky than most armour or pure life stacker builds you see.

The problems in my mind: should evasion be forced into specific unique items like lc + toh in this fashion? That doesnt seem right. Then the problem becomes: they exist, you can stack coil, toh, basalt, endurance charges, arctic armour, phys reduction pantheons, warbands hats... so because these things exist, and you can stack them, how can you add some kind of phys damage reduction to evasion that will then just stack on top of all these other things? Cause I wouldnt drop the ones I use, I would take the buff to evasion, cheers, and then still stack everything I was stacking before and it would just be even more absurd.

So options exist, on principal they dont feel very satisfactory, but they exist, they are powerful and you have to balance around the fact that people can and do use them.

Coil never went away, the game just became a joke and people decided it was fine to just go 6k life with a belly, no defences and 1 shot everything with 1.5 million shaper dps full mathil 4 damage flasks 420 noscope idgaf 3 second guardian kill lol he didnt even complete an attack animation. It works so not enough people care that coil etc exists and is still pretty absurd even in its nerfed state. These things just exist under the radar now for the most part. People are taught the game by a dps meta that ignores mitigation and are then left feeling like this or that defence sucks. Back in the days when people were looking at hc guys like goratha for build ideas defence mechanics like coil evasion were widely recognised and adopted, it got to the point where coil evasion was so widely used and obviously overpowered they had to nerf it, we were begging them to nerf it rather than go through yet another league where there felt like no reason to do anything else.

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Fruz a écrit :

Maybe having a mechanic that would increase your movement speed temporarily after you evade ? Then all racers would be running with it ....

I honestly think that evasion is more or less fine where it is at the moment, some new content additions however ... are more questionnable ( @the incursion monsters throwing quite heavy physical things at your face that you just can't seem to evade for example .... )

Doing something on evade actually doesn't work properly in the game because GGG programmed it such that monsters make accuracy checks (and thus you make evasion checks) all the time even when not actually being attacked. This info is courtesy of an old thread for the making of Daresso's Defiance (https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1108781/page/4#p9415644) where the designer asked Rory about an "on evasion" mechanic and the programmers said those checks happen so often making something even with a 1% chance on evade would almost instantly cause it to happen.

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

ya, theres a reason lightning coil and toh were nerfed, theyre absolutely insane.

I was playing around on a standard league evasion melee the other day, its still equipped, its called 'Fat_Dorothy' in my profile. Legacy coil and toh, I just did some quick maths on how much physical damage reduction that character has in the most extreme situation. So were talking about all my endurance charges up, both mitigation flasks popped, my pantheon buffs up, the full monty...

Its got 82% peek physical damage reduction, and thats static, it doesnt scale down like armour, its essentially 82% peek physical resistance = 1,800 damage taken from a 10k pure physical hit. Imo thats absurd.

This is on an evasion character who has 20k evasion, 25% more chance to evade, 40/30 dodge, 7200 life, 5.6% life regen, fully committed dagger crit melee with 2.4% life leech + vitality void leech buffs, its got some amount of block, probably somewhere in the upper teens, it blinds enemies, even landing a hit on it in the first place is not an easy task.

Even a post nerf coil and toh are so strong I wouldnt make a serious full ev character without them unless we were looking at evasion + ci or maybe evasion + kaoms heart.

I think once you start really looking at options like this for evasion builds they start to become hugely tanky, for a melee build theyre often more tanky than most armour or pure life stacker builds you see.

The problems in my mind: should evasion be forced into specific unique items like lc + toh in this fashion? That doesnt seem right. Then the problem becomes: they exist, you can stack coil, toh, basalt, endurance charges, arctic armour, phys reduction pantheons, warbands hats... so because these things exist, and you can stack them, how can you add some kind of phys damage reduction to evasion that will then just stack on top of all these other things? Cause I wouldnt drop the ones I use, I would take the buff to evasion, cheers, and then still stack everything I was stacking before and it would just be even more absurd.

So options exist, on principal they dont feel very satisfactory, but they exist, they are powerful and you have to balance around the fact that people can and do use them.

Another reason why they were nerfed is because it became possible (and still is) to get all physical damage turned into elemental/chaos and then go CI and get 100% ele res (and bleed immunity or conversion a la Apep's Supremacy) and you're immune against everything but physical degens.

But yeah, evasion is currently still pretty good in concert with everything else though I'm somewhat surprised to not see as much talk about blinding since it's really powerful. Cut the enemy's chance to hit in half with one condition? Yes please.

I could see Occultist or Trickster making EVA+CI work.

Evasion + Kaom's would be interesting. Evasion shield + Three Step Assault and other global evasion mechanics?

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

The problems in my mind: should evasion be forced into specific unique items like lc + toh in this fashion? That doesnt seem right. Then the problem becomes: they exist, you can stack coil, toh, basalt, endurance charges, arctic armour, phys reduction pantheons, warbands hats... so because these things exist, and you can stack them, how can you add some kind of phys damage reduction to evasion that will then just stack on top of all these other things? Cause I wouldnt drop the ones I use, I would take the buff to evasion, cheers, and then still stack everything I was stacking before and it would just be even more absurd.

So options exist, on principal they dont feel very satisfactory, but they exist, they are powerful and you have to balance around the fact that people can and do use them.

I was hoping you'd join this thread tbh.
That is also one concern I have, some choices are just too good for the game not to be balanced around them, and it forces players to choose them to some extent, making it .... less of a choice, really.
I need to point out to you that there are Incursion rare modifiers that do add 10% dmg taken as [select element].

Well, when building some actual defenses, which people don't really know how to do overall anymore because ... with deal with one monster's mechanics if that boss is already dead after all ?


I'm going to speak about the game more globally, but I think that it's one of the thing that makes the game good, and in a way not so good at the same time : it's the crazy scaling that can be done in some instances.
Examples :
- crit dps scaling
- poison dps scaling with quillrain or such
- the defensive mechanic's stacking making damage reduction scaling becoming ridiculous pushed at the extreme, as you mentioned
It makes the game bad in a way because eventually, the game becomes balanced around those instances, which means that not going for something like this ... is going to penalize you, more or less.
It's not that there are no choices, there are sooo many choices in this game ... but some of them just shadow most of the rest pretty much. Some choices are too good. I think that fits into the "power creep" box too ....

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Jackalope_Gaming a écrit :

Doing something on evade actually doesn't work properly in the game because GGG programmed it such that monsters make accuracy checks (and thus you make evasion checks) all the time even when not actually being attacked.

Oh wow, didn't expect that one ...
Oh well, let's forget about this idea then :(.

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Fruz a écrit :

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

The problems in my mind: should evasion be forced into specific unique items like lc + toh in this fashion? That doesnt seem right. Then the problem becomes: they exist, you can stack coil, toh, basalt, endurance charges, arctic armour, phys reduction pantheons, warbands hats... so because these things exist, and you can stack them, how can you add some kind of phys damage reduction to evasion that will then just stack on top of all these other things? Cause I wouldnt drop the ones I use, I would take the buff to evasion, cheers, and then still stack everything I was stacking before and it would just be even more absurd.

So options exist, on principal they dont feel very satisfactory, but they exist, they are powerful and you have to balance around the fact that people can and do use them.

I was hoping you'd join this thread tbh.
That is also one concern I have, some choices are just too good for the game not to be balanced around them, and it forces players to choose them to some extent, making it .... less of a choice, really.

I need to point out to you that there are Incursion rare modifiers that do add 10% dmg taken as [select element].

Yeah, Lightning Coil was and still is something to be balanced around as is ToH. It's a little unfortunate they put themselves in a hole where people can get full immunity to everything, though at least the good news is it takes proper flask management to keep up so it's not entirely braindead/passive.

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Fruz a écrit :

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Jackalope_Gaming a écrit :

Doing something on evade actually doesn't work properly in the game because GGG programmed it such that monsters make accuracy checks (and thus you make evasion checks) all the time even when not actually being attacked.

Oh wow, didn't expect that one ...
Oh well, let's forget about this idea then :(.

Yup, it is a bit sad but I can sorta see why it works out better that way compared to making the checks only on attacks like with monster packs.

With dodge I'm unsure on since it has no entropy system or other numbers to track. This has me curious about how easy it is to acquire block compared to dodge since one would expect the harder of the two to have greater benefits in the form of "when you block/dodge" mods, but it seems easier to get good block than it is to get dodge despite block having more advantages.

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Jackalope_Gaming a écrit :

I could see Occultist or Trickster making EVA+CI work.

Evasion + Kaom's would be interesting. Evasion shield + Three Step Assault and other global evasion mechanics?

occultist and trickster are both good. Occultist is better tho tbh, the synergy between energy shield, faster start of es recharge, evasion and wicked ward stopping es recharge from being interrupted if its started recently is really strong imo.

Youve got huge regen + huge es as a way of building ci, to some extent aegis block with ci, and then youve got ci with evasion. Thats how I see it in my head. If youre not a regen tank or an aegis block tank I dont see why you would do ci without evasion, presuming ur not glass cannon. For glass cannons then yeah, you just ignore defence I guess.

It works with kaoms. I have a lot of ci evasion characters, mostly occultists, I have one trickster and I have one kaoms evasion ranger. With a legacy kaoms its strong, with a current kaoms imo its lackluster compared to coil or ci, but its still an improvement over just going evasion acro with 5k life which to me is just a death trap.



I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that an "x on dodge" mechanic similar to an aegis return on block type deal wasnt possible for some kind of technical reason also, but dont take that as fact I could well be wrong.