Melee builds are complete trash

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Fruz a écrit :

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tinko92 a écrit :

So me not having a ranged 90+ character means that those hundreds of videos are fake (?) and pretty much everybody except the few on this forum agrees that melee is much worse than ranged, with provided evidence (videos, majority of top guys are ranged, etc.).

What a weak argument pal.


I am doing fine with melee, but I'm doing better as ranged and others that are ranged do better than me. Great? (as it should be)

The Berserker is ranged. Sunder is a ranged skill.


You do put the same gear. You had the same claw on other character there. As well as regalia probably. Come on.

One more time, you are talking from things that you are trying to guess, not from pure experience.
Snorkle definitely has more experience than you.
You are following the hype trend without knowing well what's actually what.
And you obviously haven't been reading his post ( or just conveniently ignoring some parts ) judging by what you are saying, so that makes this "discussion" pretty pointless ....

We are not talking about things we are trying to guess. You do not need to have 20 characters 95+ to have "experience" and understand this simple game lol.

Tinko has been playign melee on end-game content for a very long time. He knows what he is talking about.

On the other hand, I know people with several level 100 characters that are still clueless about this game because they just farm easy maps.

Please explain to me why HC ladder has had so few melee builds, EVERY league, the past 2-3 years.

Again, all of you melee naysayers have never been able to answer this question. Because I ask it all the time in these threads and you all go quiet.

FFS stop arguing about "feels" like this - go to fucking poebuilds.io and tell me how many melee builds there are vs. non-melee builds. Then you want to say wiht a straight face that melee is fine?

Get out of here. No one is saying melee doesn't work, it is just VERY hard to make it work compared to other builds.

Wow, such a high horse I see ....

Why ? The answer is very easy : because it's easier to put together, and casters are usually less rng reliant dps wise ( even though getting correct weapons now is not a really difficult task, even SSF ).
That makes casters a more convenient / easy choice early on especially, and casters are mechanically not melee ( altho one of the strongest spell atm is .... at about melee range ).
There are also couple of spell based archetypes that are completely broken ( hello pizza sticks ) so ...


I don't think that anybody said that melee was fine, just that the difference isn't as big as people make it out to be here.
But obviously, there are quite big balance issues range <-> melee and ES <-> life.


It isn't VERY hard to make it work ( altho subjectively one could say that it's very hard to make anything work to endgame depending on the knowledge of the game ).
It's just harder, which is why some might also find it more interesting ( not advocating for it here ).

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Cerynean a écrit :

Tinko has been playign melee on end-game content for a very long time. He knows what he is talking about.

Saying that evasion is dogshit and is never worth using in

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

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RogueMage a écrit :

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

How much life and dps do you have on this cleaver? what are we dealing with here? I like armour and evasion but not at the expensive of life and dps, Im looking at about 6,400 life and 120k dps baseline acceptable.

That's why you think the game is "an absurd faceroll".

People like foxtactics in my guild who actually push dps with fairly expensive gear hit 300k, then 400k, then 500k, a week later its 600k, "I think I can squeeze another 50k+ if I get proper gear and level all my gems". Meanwhile mathil is there "When we calc the poison Im at 1 million dps... Ive been playing this character for 4 days... but this poison stuff isnt whats rly broken, check out this sprinkler build that does 3x as much damage as that". Im talking tanked out builds who arnt even focused on damage.

Absurd faceroll indeed, you just reiterated my point: Far from being "complete trash", melee builds are actually the only legimate challenge left in the game. The so-called "endgame" is a rigged pay2win bragging-rights orgy of obscenely overpowered trophies.

Here's a glimpse of what the game looks like uncorrupted by crackhead power creep. Of my stable of level-86+ melee fighters, none have more than 5K HP or items that originally traded for more than 5 Exalts. The most excessive tooltip DPS I've seen was a bit over 50K, courtesy of a Legacy 850% Facebreaker. My characters don't have more than around 5K armour or evasion, but they stack every other kind of defense a melee fighter can use. As a result, I routinely solo all kinds of blue maps up into Tier 13, skipping only a few bosses that are just unhinged. My favorite map mod used to be double-Beyond, until that was sabotaged by Legacy League bullshit. I'd run higher tier maps if they ever dropped, but I refuse to pay2play for the privilege. From what I hear, they're loaded with gratuitous boss immunities and cheesy one-shot death traps. How fucking innovative.

ES build also favours casters a lot, because spell nodes are located in same area as ES nodes.

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Please explain to me why HC ladder has had so few melee builds, EVERY league, the past 2-3 years.

Well you should look a bit further. How many direct attackers are in there? Because not only are melees rare, bows are rare as well. If there is someone that uses attacks in there it is one of the following:

Poison Double Dipping
HoWA
Ancestral Warchief
Blade Flurry (mostly with either the first or the second, but a few just used it with crit)

Rarely anything else in regards to attacks. And that is mainly due to scaling. It is just insanely hard to scale attacks compared to spells. Having good scaling basically means better defenses because you don't have to put as much into your offensive capabilities. And that is the basic issue right there. And while RT based melees are in the worst shape for this ranged attackers aren't that much better off.

And actually there were more Blade Flurry chars than bow users and even though some of the FB elementalists switched to stuff like Crit Windripper it isn't because it is better but more likely because FB Totems are so incredible boring to play and they had the gear to make it work.

HC ladder though usually just shows what is easiest to play and needs the least amount of gear to work. It doesn't mean that everything that is not there is terrible, it is just not as good. It was mentioned before that melee is far from terrible nowadays and improved a lot, but there are two current issues with melee:

a) It has the hardest time to double dip, which is bad in the current meta
b) It works the least with ES, which again is bad in the current meta

Which also means that nerfs to ES and Double Dip mostly benefit melees, it doesn't improve them at all but hopefully makes the gap a bit closer. I doubt that melee will be as good as casters because honestly my FB Totems destroy maps even when enemies have a 90% chance to avoid ignites or something like that and I don't even have good gear. So overall spells are just insanely powerful overall even without some of those mechanics. And of course FB is one of the more insane spells anyway, but I tried it with Flame Totem which gives similar results although not that ridicolous.

And you can check that character to see that he is nothing too special, I can't keep on playing him because I moved and don't have internet to play in my new flat but he could have beaten guardians and he did at least manage to beat Core (I didn't reach the other T15 before having to stop playing). So overall I invested very little and got a lot out of it just by using a good spell. I doubt I could have achieved the same with a melee build. I did try a Terminus Est Raider with permanent Onslaught (I never got him that far though :P) and while he is already a lot more fun to play he is a lot less powerful.

So overall I feel that spells are really good to scale and don't require much gear to work. Even without a weapon a spell still deals a good amount of damage, if I take of my sceptre I don't lose a terrible amount of damage, try removing your weapon as an attacker it just doesn't work. Basically all your damage is based on one single item, while as a caster all your gear adds a bit of power to you which is mainly based on your spell level.

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Ceryneian a écrit :

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

No, I dont use totems on any of my current characters, you must be thinking of someone else.

I can show you vids of melee chars playing chimera if you want

http://plays.tv/video/58bf00c4702cfaff73/wildstrike-raider-v-chim

http://plays.tv/video/58c56f0390c676a9ed/cyclone-ci-v-chim

http://plays.tv/video/58dfac8bd135384479/gladiator-v-chim

Wasn't totems, but I did find your post:

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

Ill show you a video of a legacy kaoms heart build playing the chimera boss, and you can have a laugh while its forced to run around in circles manually avoiding the snakes and the goats etc because it would die very fast if it stopped to facetank them...

http://plays.tv/video/58c4a0f4ba1d6d29d4/11k-kaoms-v-chim-hardworktbh-

Interesting. Yup, melee seems alright.

Oh right, ya ci hiding behind totems, aka a kaoms build without totems, all the same thing right? you have a good memory for information, you obviously pay attention to things.

see how I just facetanked everything with those other 3 melee builds I posted, then went in there with an 11k life 240 exalt legacy kaoms and was in far more danger? Because kaoms builds are pretty shit compared to builds that stack mitigation when it comes to tanking damage. Theres good ways to make melee builds and not so good ways to make them. You have 4 videos there, but by all means completely ignore the top 3 and only focus on the 1 that I posted to show how sub optimal playing with life pool and no serious mitigation is in those sort of fights and pretend that represents "melee" because that supports the point you want to make even though everyone can see its dishonest cherry picking information in order to paint a false picture.

Do you even realise that is what you are doing? Or are you so deluded that youre actually fooling yourself?

Why do you post in these sort of threads and take part in these discussions if you dont want to have an honest conversation about reality? Have you ever seriously asked yourself that question?

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Fruz a écrit :

Just to make sure ( I'm definitely not a dps freak here, quite the opposite actually, I'm on a Gladiator Incenerator on 8k dps before factoring the inc damage on monster from the ascendancy and resistance debuffs, to illustrate a bit, but switch to LL RF is coming so Ill guess that will change soon ), all of those setups you are mentioning ..... are crit based, right ?

Like, 250k on a lvl 16 4L freezing pulse .... you cannot get that without stacking crit, or am I missing something ?
I'll check your builds later to see how you are reaching that much dps I think, might be a bit hard to grasp since there seem to be quite a bit of really expensive gear, but I'm really curious.
I mean, I'm happy to play the game on 30k dps for example lol.

oh I certainly dont have 250k freeze pulse in a 4 link, thats my guild leader. If I made a freeze pulse build Id probably have half that, 125k, with a lvl21 gem in a 6 link. Id have about 4x the ehp he does but theres no way Id ever get close to the damage scaling he manages.

Virtually all those builds would be crit, poison or burn ya, with a 2h you can hit 6400 life with 120k dps RT. The way victor doom makes his chars he could probably be running around with 7k life and double that dps using a 1 chaos unique 2h weapon. The way I make them my cyclone is about 135-140k and closing in on 7k life by lvl95, but thats with ridiculous amounts of mitigation. Generally Im talking about crit though yes.

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RogueMage a écrit :

Absurd faceroll indeed, you just reiterated my point: Far from being "complete trash", melee builds are actually the only legimate challenge left in the game. The so-called "endgame" is a rigged pay2win bragging-rights orgy of obscenely overpowered trophies.

Here's a glimpse of what the game looks like uncorrupted by crackhead power creep. Of my stable of melee fighters, none have more than 5K HP or items that originally traded for more than 5 Exalts. The most excessive tooltip DPS I've seen was a bit over 50K, courtesy of a Legacy 850% Facebreaker. My characters don't have more than around 5K armour or evasion, but they stack every other kind of defense a melee fighter can use. As a result, I routinely solo all kinds of blue maps up into Tier 13, skipping only a few bosses that are just unhinged. My favorite map mod used to be double-Beyond, until that was sabotaged by Legacy League bullshit. I'd run higher tier maps if they ever dropped, but I refuse to pay2play for the privilege. From what I hear, they're loaded with gratuitous boss immunities and cheesy one-shot death traps. How fucking innovative.

in standard for 5 exalts all in you could put together a melee ranger with over 6k life, 120k dps and could farm t16 maps. Getting them to drop though is, well, yeah its all about luck I guess. I refuse to buy maps too, if they dont drop I dont play them, I dont buy maps, fragments, sets, I refuse to trade for access to anything, either they drop or they dont.

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Emphasy a écrit :

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Please explain to me why HC ladder has had so few melee builds, EVERY league, the past 2-3 years.

Well you should look a bit further. How many direct attackers are in there? Because not only are melees rare, bows are rare as well.

yeah pretty much, if you want to race through content, power level, then spells are almost always the choice because of base damage coming from gem level. Its not exclusive to melee its all attacks that suffer from not being considered viable for ladder pushing in the vast majority of cases.

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

Oh right, ya ci hiding behind totems, aka a kaoms build without totems, all the same thing right? you have a good memory for information, you obviously pay attention to things.

see how I just facetanked everything with those other 3 melee builds I posted, then went in there with an 11k life 240 exalt legacy kaoms and was in far more danger? Because kaoms builds are pretty shit compared to builds that stack mitigation when it comes to tanking damage. Theres good ways to make melee builds and not so good ways to make them. You have 4 videos there, but by all means completely ignore the top 3 and only focus on the 1 that I posted to show how sub optimal playing with life pool and no serious mitigation is in those sort of fights and pretend that represents "melee" because that supports the point you want to make even though everyone can see its dishonest cherry picking information in order to paint a false picture.

Do you even realise that is what you are doing? Or are you so deluded that youre actually fooling yourself?

Why do you post in these sort of threads and take part in these discussions if you dont want to have an honest conversation about reality? Have you ever seriously asked yourself that question?

Again you must be extremely dense if you are still missing the point after 13 pages - no one is saying melee is not viable, we are saying it is MUCH harder to do.

I can do Vaal Temple on a 4k life melee build with abyssus and NO mitigation - does that mean it is easy?

Everything you showed me about your "melee" builds there are many other non-melee builds at a fraction of your cost doing this same content much easier than melee. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

And good to know Wildstrike is melee lol.

You just proved my point with your Kaom's vid on 11k HP - let that sink into your head - you have an 11k hp build and you are afraid of adds because you are melee. That's a fking joke.

And still you don't want to answer why there are hardly any melee builds on HC ladder every league - every melee thread you avoid that question and instead like bringing up how many level 100 characters you have or how many times you've killed Chimera. Go do fking Uber Atziri run lmfao and compare it to range.

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Ceryneian a écrit :

no one is saying melee is not viable, we are saying it is MUCH harder to do.

*looking at thread title*

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And good to know Wildstrike is melee lol.

If everybody uses his own definition of what is melee and what isn't, good luck for a "discussion".
Even if you don't like it, the only somewhat objective definition of melee in this game is: Everything that has a "melee" tag must be considered melee.

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You just proved my point with your Kaom's vid on 11k HP - let that sink into your head - you have an 11k hp build and you are afraid of adds because you are melee. That's a fking joke.

The point to take away from that vid is: Melee without mitigation is a joke.
Not "melee is a joke".

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And still you don't want to answer why there are hardly any melee builds on HC ladder every league

It's been answered countless times:
Melee cannot compete in xp/hour races. It can beat all content, but even with BiS gear and even if you never die, you still cannot run a shaped strand in 10 seconds, so you'll lose that race.

If only the "cannot compete in ladder" part is important to you, indeed, melee is terrible. Will always be.
If the "can beat all content" part is more interesting, then: melee is fine.

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Ceryneian a écrit :

You just proved my point with your Kaom's vid on 11k HP - let that sink into your head - you have an 11k hp build and you are afraid of adds because you are melee. That's a fking joke.

but I also showed you a video of a 6,600 life melee build that isnt afraid of adds. the kaoms build isnt afraid of adds because its melee, its afraid of adds because kaoms is not a good defense in those sort of fights.

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Ceryneian a écrit :

And still you don't want to answer why there are hardly any melee builds on HC ladder every league - every melee thread you avoid that question

we just talked about that in the post above the one you just made, saying the same thing thats been said previously in this and all the other threads. I even brought it up in my list of problems with melee earlier in this thread. I havent even said there isnt any problems with melee, Im always saying theres problems, I just dont agree with every single point other people make and I debate them. You take that as being me completely against the idea theres any problems with melee, despite that clearly not being what Ive said.

whatever mate, I dont feel like theres any point debating anything with you. Youre gonna believe what you want to believe, read what you want to read.

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Fruz a écrit :

Saying that evasion is dogshit and is never worth using in

You seriously made that up in your weird brain based on my usage of Kaoms Roots?


LMAO