Endurance Charges Overpowered?
" I realize this. " No, the variable factor goes on top. Constants go on bottom, because you're going to have them anyway. You have endurance. You have a granite flask. Now we want to see whether you should stack armour rating or not. Armour is the only variable, and your final investment, so the actual effect on gameplay is that its benefit comes last. I'm not cherrypicking on this one. Armour rating is the ONLY thing that you have control over. Number of charges is set in stone by your build. Gain from a granite flask is set in stone by the game. Had more text here but it didn't say anything new. This is the most useful way to look at it, if you want to know how varying your armour rating changes your defense. There it is: having lots of endurance charges magnifies the EH benefit from increasing your armour rating by more than a factor of 6. The only more precise way to present this concept would be in terms of the EH value a small change in armour rating carries, across both conditions. That is, with many endurance charges, and then with none. Then relate that ΔAR figure to both the value of a single armour passive and a single armour affix. Now you'd be looking at "Percent EH gain per passive invested" and "Percent EH gain per perfect armour affix". With and without charges. Wonder how that will turn up. -- I don't have alpha access, that was a LONG time ago. Dernière édition par Zakaluka#1191, le 12 févr. 2013 à 12:33:29
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" That's pretty much his point. Are frenzy charges required to play ranged attack builds? No, unless you make a build around them. Are power charges required to play caster builds? No, unless you make a build around them. Are endurance charges required to play melee attack builds? Yes. ign: Aan_allein
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Honestly, Power Charges GREATLY improve the effectiveness of magic artillery builds. Unfortunately, the only way to generate them, currently, is attacking with wands which isn't really that complimentary.
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Endurance charges are not overpowered, but the fact that you can't apparently effectively tank without it is broken.
Ihmo, there are things to change in the physical damage mitigation and in the magical resistances mechanics, more than in the endurance charges. More way to generate them would be really nice too. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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" Not going to argue semantics on an ARPG game forum, but I hate it when statements made are misleading. The answer was Yes and Yes for frenzy and power, and he then answers No for endurance charges. " The correct answer is No, but it helps if you are the lazy type of melee that sits there take the damage and die and then go to the forums and complain to GGG to buff melee defense ;-). Here is the arsenal of tools you could use beside endurance charges: - Stun - you can practically perma-stun everything that is not immune to it (a combined stun gem and vulnerability plus selection of some gear and you are very close to the 100% cap). - Enfeeble you can reduce damage dealt by mob - before mitigation - by up to 34% - of course doesnt work on hexproof stuff :-) At 25%, Enfeeble is equivalent to a 33% increase in your armor on top of a 75% flat multiplication of DR At 34%, Enfeeble is equivalent to a 51% increase in your armor on top of a 66% flat multiplication of DR - Decoy totem (mobs will hit something else). I am not arguing that endurance is not useful, it certainly is, I made calculations similar to the OP that shows that your Armor more efficiently used while having endurance charges on than NOT. However, let's not deduce that this is a mandatory thing to have, in fact, as you can see from the plot below,
Spoiler
 A mere rank-1 Enfeeble is right there between a 4 and 5 stack of endurance charges (what we looking at are curves that describe what I call the Dkill, i.e. damage that would otherwise kill you- just another look at EHP if you want, which is a concept i do not like - check my other thread on armor http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/118945/page/1), in addition, Enfeeble does not cap with DR (to the best if my knowledge) since it is acting on the source of damage, feel free to add 25% on top of 90%. So are endurance charges and enfeeble OP ? try combining both :-). Resists trolls
Casts Joy Ninja looter Spreads tar when tickled |
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" Already two ways to generate them: -Warlord is pretty bad, I commented on it on the skill feedback, this needs to be changed from on death proc to on hit proc while lowering the chance so as not to be too OP :-). - Enduring cry (always wondered why call it a cry instead of a shout, I guess too much pain). Not sure if this is enough, however, what could really be helpful is the addition of more time on the charges. I know there are 2 passives to increase the time, but it is still not engh to give more head room for doing damage instead of worrying about their refresh. In fact, I would like them to have a chance to refresh automatically (not increase charges!) as a chance for being hit. Resists trolls
Casts Joy Ninja looter Spreads tar when tickled |
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" God I wish I had a copy of mathematica to play with. It makes much prettier plots than the tools I have. The issue I have with Dkill is this: When you add defense, damage doesn't necessarily go up at the same time to track it. Instead, damage intake moves independently of your defense. As a result, when you improve your defense, you actually get to absorb considerably more extra damage than a Dkill plot would suggest. I'm very interested how your plots look when you treat D as constant. Assume a difficult boss that hits for about 80% of your health if you're built smartly (this seems to be a design point for Brutus at least, with his slam). Thus putting the particular axis arrangement you've chosen on an effective health plot. Your particular substitution to take absolute damage and armour numbers out of the plot is interesting, too. I'll look into that one. With my substitution ("Amour per point damage" as the main variable) I still had to choose some rather arbitrary values anytime I want a plot. Your substitution is better, and I'll make use of it in the future. For the rest of you looking at this graph, that's what I meant earlier. Treating EH as "size of a single hit which kills you" shows severe diminishing returns on armour. Skarr's graph says that the more armour you have the less valuable it becomes. One useful thing this graph does is show you how much more armour you need when damage goes up. -- I don't have alpha access, that was a LONG time ago. Dernière édition par Zakaluka#1191, le 12 févr. 2013 à 14:23:16
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" Stun: 40% AoE groundslams don't count as melee range. The entire issue is that if you go into actual melee range, you are crossing a safety line that most people can sense just by playing the game. It may be fine for a while, but once yo start doing maps, it becomes quite apparent how unreasonable it is to expect to mitigate the damage. The problem is the inherent doom of someone who is on the front lines (read: melee range). Not having endurance charges and being in melee range is just suicidal. 100% stun threshold reduction is not going to help you. Enfeeble: Not sure what to say. Are you trying to imply that there are people doing maps (solo or group) with melee characters who feel pigeon-holed into endurance charges, and wouldn't feel that way if mobs were enfeebled? Can't really imagine someone in that scenario not having plenty of experience with the enfeeble curse. ign: Aan_allein
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"Not so. If you've managed to get all nine endurance charges, then you HAVE armour. You're simply not going to make a decent build out of anything else with such a heavy investment in the STR tree. Therefore armour is the constant, and endurance charges are the variable. Dernière édition par Strill#1101, le 12 févr. 2013 à 14:23:06
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" Wow, my mind is blown. So you're saying that armour is a given, and endurance is the cherry on top? In practice it's completely the other way around. People run around stacking life with 7 endurance charges and assume armour is total utter garbage, neglecting it completely beyond whatever they come across incidentally, and the armour on their granite flask. Armour rating on gear is hard to find, because life gives you more immediate value and comes with a single independent stat - while armour requires two simultaneous overlapping stats to get near the top of the budget. Most people are well below 30% of the armour budget on their gear without realizing it. And this leading to quite common builds that take absolutely no armour passives, but grab every possible endurance charge. Armour is ONLY a good investment value if you have plenty of endurance. See the graph skarr posted for this, it's really much more convincing than any of the ones I've made. At D=2*HP, a zero-endurance build needs 24 times its health in armour to survive. A 7-endurance build needs a sixth of that. I'll keep getting all of my planned endurance charges first thing in all my builds, and stack armour later. Makes far more sense to me. I don't think we're ever going to agree on this one, just go back and forth contradicting each other completely. -- I don't have alpha access, that was a LONG time ago. Dernière édition par Zakaluka#1191, le 12 févr. 2013 à 14:35:10
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