The Game Feels Overly Complex and Time Demanding

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bloomhead#3858 a écrit :

Standard is for casuals. Nothing more, nothing less.

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bloomhead#3858 a écrit :

Standard is for casuals. Nothing more, nothing less.

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karsey#2995 a écrit :

Who should this game be designed for?

Casuals who don't want to read or think?

Or diehard ARPG fans who want to have spreadsheets and a build planner open on an extra monitor?

(The keyword there was "want")

My answer is that we already have tons of ARPGs designed for the first category of player. They are the "every player" and will abandon games as fast as they pick them up.

There is a reason most of those ARPGs fade away and a reason why games like D2 are still played 26 years later and PoE1 13yrs later.

When you make a game for everyone, you make a game for no one.

It's why most of the feedback on this forum is absolute garbage that almost always undermines the aspects of the game which are responsible for them playing it in the first place.

When a game's difficult for most people, most people's feedback will be to make the game easier, and if acquiesced, then subsequently, most people would lose interest in completing a game which no longer offers the potential of feeling rewarded for overcoming a difficult challenge.

When 80% of the feedback is "make the game easier", it means the game is designed appropriately.

It's a bit like asking the fish how to catch more fish: more bait! easier to catch and bite the bait! Not so close to the surface because all the fast fish make it there first!. Then you ask a fisherman and he says "If you make the bait harder to catch and keep it closer to the surface you make sure that you don't catch a small lazy fish, the only ones you'll catch are the biggest and fastest, strongest fish" as he shows you his stockpile of giant strong fish that pay for further development of this fishing enterprise.

We are the fish, providing feedback about how to catch more of us. Most of our advice is going to be carp.

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kr4nkr4n#6564 a écrit :

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This game is designed for addicted players, not for casual gamers. If you want to relax, you should find another game.

haha i relax here on 95 lvl ssf hc character. what do you mean?

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2836742981#3689 a écrit :

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karsey#2995 a écrit :

Who should this game be designed for?

Casuals who don't want to read or think?

Or diehard ARPG fans who want to have spreadsheets and a build planner open on an extra monitor?

(The keyword there was "want")

My answer is that we already have tons of ARPGs designed for the first category of player. They are the "every player" and will abandon games as fast as they pick them up.

There is a reason most of those ARPGs fade away and a reason why games like D2 are still played 26 years later and PoE1 13yrs later.

When you make a game for everyone, you make a game for no one.

It's why most of the feedback on this forum is absolute garbage that almost always undermines the aspects of the game which are responsible for them playing it in the first place.

When a game's difficult for most people, most people's feedback will be to make the game easier, and if acquiesced, then subsequently, most people would lose interest in completing a game which no longer offers the potential of feeling rewarded for overcoming a difficult challenge.

When 80% of the feedback is "make the game easier", it means the game is designed appropriately.

It's a bit like asking the fish how to catch more fish: more bait! easier to catch and bite the bait! Not so close to the surface because all the fast fish make it there first!. Then you ask a fisherman and he says "If you make the bait harder to catch and keep it closer to the surface you make sure that you don't catch a small lazy fish, the only ones you'll catch are the biggest and fastest, strongest fish" as he shows you his stockpile of giant strong fish that pay for further development of this fishing enterprise.

We are the fish, providing feedback about how to catch more of us. Most of our advice is going to be carp.

You’re suggesting a game must either be for 'braindead casuals' or 'spreadsheet warriors.' There is a massive middle ground where 90% of successful games live. You can have deep mechanics that are also intuitive. Complexity doesn't have to mean 'obfuscation' or 'bad UI that requires a second monitor.'

You mentioned Diablo 2 and PoE as proof that 'hard/complex = longevity.' That’s Survivorship Bias. You’re ignoring the hundreds of overly complex, clunky ARPGs that died because they were inaccessible messes. D2 and PoE didn't survive just because they were complex; they survived because they had great core gameplay loops, iconic art direction, and in PoE's case, constant free content updates.

By calling most feedback absolute garbage because it asks for accessibility, you’re basically saying 'No true ARPG fan wants the game to be easier.' It’s a way to dismiss any valid criticism of bad game design as 'just casual whining.' If a mechanic is tedious rather than difficult, calling it out isn't asking for a handout, it's asking for better design.

Your analogy actually works against you. If the fisherman only catches the biggest, strongest fish, he eventually runs out of fish because he’s killed off the breeding stock. In gaming terms: no new players = dead game. A game that refuses to onboard new 'fish' eventually sees its 'whale' population dwindle until the servers shut down. Even PoE has spent the last three years trying to streamline its gems and campaign because they realize a game with zero growth is a dying game.

The idea that if 80% of people hate a feature, it’s working is the stupidest thing I've heard. By that logic, if a game crashed every 5 minutes and 80% of people complained, the devs should pat themselves on the back for a job well done. There is a difference between challenging content and friction-heavy design. The Bottom Line: You can make a game that is hard to master without making it a chore to enter. Stop gatekeeping 'difficulty' as an excuse for clunky systems."