Armor also applies to elemental dmg wording? + Other feedback

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Soulsniper1313#7576 a écrit :

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seaman#4993 a écrit :

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Soulsniper1313#7576 a écrit :

Wait, dosent black flame just convert fire to chaos?

Blackflame Covenant converts fire dmg of fire spells to chaos dmg.

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The real confusing thing is what does it scale with after you get that node.... It would make sense if it scaled with both because all your damage is now chaos, so anything + to chaos should work but it converts fire so any other + fire should also work because it is then converted but I think I heard it dosent work this way and only scales chaos after or something. Very unclear.

Ohhhh gotcha. So the conversion actually applies to the base damage BEFORE any modifiers. Ok that makes sense now. So once the base damage is converted it can now only scale from the one. That makes more sense. Thank you for clarifying.

So for extra clarity, would +Fire Spells be applied first since it modifies the base damage then? Or is + Chaos Spells the way to scale the skill level.

Based on my current understanding, +Fire Spells would scale the base damage, then the conversion happens, THEN all + Spell Damage and + Chaos Damage applies. Is this correct?

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So for extra clarity, would +Fire Spells be applied first since it modifies the base damage then? Or is + Chaos Spells the way to scale the skill level.

Blackflame Covenant doesn't change the core ability nor its elements or tags. It is still a fire skill, which benefits from "+# to level of (all) fire/spell skills" modifiers.

It also will not be affected by "+# to level of (all) chaos skills".

+# to level stats are not really damage only stats, even if they are mostly used for that kind. But don't start to confuse level of skills to being part of any damage conversion... it is not.

The question when this effect appears is before anything else in terms of damage calculations.

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Xzorn#7046 a écrit :

I thought you just got % of Armor as extra Elemental Damage for a while.

Mostly because it just makes no sense at all that armor provides elemental damage DR. Only one other RPG game I've ever played did that and it was stupid there too. Diablo 4.

Conversion is just bad. It insures secondary effects of the damage like Ignite, Shock, whatever is not going to have any potency. Blackflame only works because things have low Chaos Res. It should swap on it's way out. You take fire nodes but use a Chaos Curse.

No one would take 100% of Lightning damage converted to Fire the way it works now.

"#% of armour as extra elemental damage reduction"

Makes sense if we have modifiers like "-#% to maximum elemental resistances" and "-#% to elemental resistance", which we have.

So you get more DR for elemental damage over the stuff you could normally acquire and it is also more accessible as max resistances for now.

It is only of use if you play hardest content and don't know where you should else stack defenses or if you as SSF player struggle with normal resistances and have to fight "- max res" for waystones. But otherwise it is not required mostly.

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Conversion is just bad.

That's not quite true, especially not since we got support gems and other functions which can apply the former ailments with chaos damage.
Certain conversions would be somewhat not in favour and the way some ailments work in PoE 2, you mostly only want to have lightning damage and maybe some cold damage.

Especially since we don't have to deal with reflect.

But not only have enemies less chaos resistance in general, map modifiers like extra elemental resistances and or max resistances from Expedition don't affect you at all.

There are but far more sources of lowering enemy resistances by elements as we have them with chaos damage. Like rakiatas flow which inverts the resistance which is far stronger as using any form of penetration or conversion to chaos.
Especially if you can combine it with "doryanis prototype" body armour, to give enemies -200% lightning resistance easily.

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You take fire nodes but use a Chaos Curse.

I guess this was an recommendation on how it should work rather as how it works, cause if you use blackflame, skilling for fire nodes have no effect.

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No one would take 100% of Lightning damage converted to Fire the way it works now.

Pretty much anyone but would take 100% of fire to lightning conversion even on the way it works right now. Anyone would like to convert to lightning. Even chaos would like to kinda :,D

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Ondrugs#1147 a écrit :

"#% of armour as extra elemental damage reduction"

Makes sense if we have modifiers like "-#% to maximum elemental resistances" and "-#% to elemental resistance", which we have.

So you get more DR for elemental damage over the stuff you could normally acquire and it is also more accessible as max resistances for now.

It is only of use if you play hardest content and don't know where you should else stack defenses or if you as SSF player struggle with normal resistances and have to fight "- max res" for waystones. But otherwise it is not required mostly.

It really doesn't. When you create a damage system you design different attacks, spells and damage types with their appropriate counterparts. There's no mechanical purpose in having both DR from armor for both Physical and Elemental when resistances exist.

If we simplify it.

Say you have Physical, Fire, Lightning, Cold, Chaos resistance and that's all. Some source needs to give you each of these while another counters it to a lesser degree. This is also why the "Big Hit Vs Little Hit" is stupid. In this example if armor gave you physical resists it would be equal to something penetrating 50% of your elemental resists. Which we know, even a -10% resistance reduction is quite notable because they don't easily cap at 90% which is also poor design.

It's a very cornball way to patchwork a system that never worked right in the first place.

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Ondrugs#1147 a écrit :

That's not quite true, especially not since we got support gems and other functions which can apply the former ailments with chaos damage.
Certain conversions would be somewhat not in favour and the way some ailments work in PoE 2, you mostly only want to have lightning damage and maybe some cold damage.

Especially since we don't have to deal with reflect.

But not only have enemies less chaos resistance in general, map modifiers like extra elemental resistances and or max resistances from Expedition don't affect you at all.

There are but far more sources of lowering enemy resistances by elements as we have them with chaos damage. Like rakiatas flow which inverts the resistance which is far stronger as using any form of penetration or conversion to chaos.
Especially if you can combine it with "doryanis prototype" body armour, to give enemies -200% lightning resistance easily.

I guess you could see it as a recommendation but I find it just a superior method of conversion. I picked a poor conversion type as an example. Obviously people would convert to lightning in most cases but It's more about causing limited build options and pathing.

Inverting Elemental resistance on a skill or support is just bad design IMO. It requires no thought at all. It's simply going to be the best option every time when dealing elemental damage.

Black Flame itself explains how dumb this conversion method is. If damage conversion was last It would only need to say 100% of Fire damage is Converted to Chaos" Instead it has to talk about Flammability, Ignite magnitude conversion and Burning damage conversion.

I think the point of the conversion change is specifically to prevent the kind of overkill shenanigans that happen in poe1 because of that sort of design.

Eg. if you do fire, scale all of it's magnitude with fire-related affixes, and then convert it to a damage type that enemies are weak to, it means that the conversion is really doing most of the work there. It's a lynch-pin mechanism, which it seems clear they are trying to avoid these in poe2.

If you do fire dmg and then immediately convert it to chaos before the scaling, you still need to do all of the scaling - it's not an instant workaround to avoiding resistance, it's just an alternative pathway with different scaling that can be played in a progressive manner.

I suppose that it is a a poe1 design and build mentality that does not transfer over to poe2. Personally I prefer the poe2 way, but I understand why a poe1 player looks at a node like Black Flame Covenant and thinks, "what's even the point?".

I guess a few notes about some other items mentioned:

- I think it's worthwhile to point out that while Rakiata's is strong, it is localized to one skill and it's only a suitable choices where you don't also need to lower enemy resistances to do damage with any other skills.
- Thorns can be useful even if you don't "build around it" as a main damage mechanic. Even modest numbers can significantly supplement life recovery in combat for some builds with leech on it - even if your only source of it comes from the scavenged plating spirit buff, and if you have a lot of stun build up from the tree/gear I think most people might be surprised at how much it can contribute and how much smoother it can make stun builds feel to play.

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Xzorn#7046 a écrit :

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Ondrugs#1147 a écrit :

"#% of armour as extra elemental damage reduction"

It really doesn't.

It does. Except you don't want to understand it, which is understandable.

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Say you have Physical, Fire, Lightning, Cold, Chaos resistance and that's all. Some source needs to give you each of these while another counters it to a lesser degree. This is also why the "Big Hit Vs Little Hit" is stupid. In this example if armor gave you physical resists it would be equal to something penetrating 50% of your elemental resists. Which we know, even a -10% resistance reduction is quite notable because they don't easily cap at 90% which is also poor design.

This makes no sense at all and provides no informations about anything. You lack values in your example. At the moment it is just a combination of words to justify your opinion without naming any meaningful insights on how you think it interacts.

Your armour does reduce the damage of all elementals if you use the "#% of armour as extra elemental damage reduction" stat. Which then gets further reduced by resistances.

You even argued against yourself by saying "Which we know, even a -10% resistance reduction is quite notable because they don't easily cap at 90%".

So armour that applies to ele damage taken would be immense from your own point, cause you would take easily like 30 - 50% less damage from the hit and reducing it further by resistances. Even more if you take in account that we still can encounter - max resistances the armour is not affected by.

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...because they don't easily cap at 90% which is also poor design.

What is the poor design? Getting to 90% max res shouldn't be an easy deet to begin with. The same way level 100 is not a requirement for anything in the game.

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Inverting Elemental resistance on a skill or support is just bad design IMO. It requires no thought at all. It's simply going to be the best option every time when dealing elemental damage.

We have that possibility in PoE 1, too.
Either through....
- elemental mastery which provide 15% chance to count them as inverted https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Elemental_Mastery
- unique item like "Rakiata's Dance" https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Rakiata%27s_Dance
- skill gem Wild strike of extremes https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Wild_Strike_of_Extremes

Yet near to nobody uses it/them.

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It requires no thought at all. It's simply going to be the best option every time when dealing elemental damage.

If the enemy has positive resistances and if we have no other options to get to the same amount of damage or better.

Like doryanis prototype would make it senseless to use rakiatas to begin with, except you stacking Lightning resistance into crazy positive numbers.
But since we only are allowed to have 1 lineage support now, it would only make sense to do that, if you only use 1 ability.

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Black Flame itself explains how dumb this conversion method is. If damage conversion was last It would only need to say 100% of Fire damage is Converted to Chaos" Instead it has to talk about Flammability, Ignite magnitude conversion and Burning damage conversion.

Thats not true at all. Normally even having the conversion at the end wouldn't change a thing about flammability, ignite magnitude or the burning damage interaction.

It doesn't matter where or when we convert, except you meant conversion after damage taken, which would be mental.

The description of black flame gives the effect the unique interaction since you still be able to ignite and burn enemies, them but taking chaos damage rather than fire damage over time.

In any other conversion it would make the ailments of former elements just useless.