Why is warrior so much like an action game character? i mean souls like or similars

"

Skellymancer#5263 a écrit :

"

WhisperSlade#0532 a écrit :

Deadeye = fomo

Now I can already hear you saying "You think just because the mace warrior is slow, that makes it methodical and interesting?" Well no, of course not. But you certainly won't get to 'interesting' gameplay with one-click builds that wipe the screen before you can see monster mechanics. Having to engage with the combat is just the first step toward a fun combat system.

Lets assume that we want to buy a ring.

We both go to the market and look: nice ring T0 for both of our builds, but it costs 20 div.

I open my man-purse and I pay the man.

Why? Because I have been farming 5 divines per hour, and I can afford it.
And your "interesting build" is not farming a flying crap.

So I equip my ring. And now I am farming 10 divines per hour. Couldn't be happier.

And here is the big question:

While everyone is doing juiced maps, T3 pinnacles, high-end farming strategies... Will you be happy doing white maps?

Will you honestly feel satisfied, when your build is not going anywhere near the good players?

---------

I know the answer to that question. No.
You do not want to spend 10 minutes epic battle hearing in your head some epic ATARI 1990` game music.

And then get a shitty regal shard as reward...

how are you making that many divs? just curiosity

"

Stigardthecrow#5874 a écrit :

"

Skellymancer#5263 a écrit :

"

WhisperSlade#0532 a écrit :

Deadeye = fomo

Now I can already hear you saying "You think just because the mace warrior is slow, that makes it methodical and interesting?" Well no, of course not. But you certainly won't get to 'interesting' gameplay with one-click builds that wipe the screen before you can see monster mechanics. Having to engage with the combat is just the first step toward a fun combat system.

Lets assume that we want to buy a ring.

We both go to the market and look: nice ring T0 for both of our builds, but it costs 20 div.

I open my man-purse and I pay the man.

Why? Because I have been farming 5 divines per hour, and I can afford it.
And your "interesting build" is not farming a flying crap.

So I equip my ring. And now I am farming 10 divines per hour. Couldn't be happier.

And here is the big question:

While everyone is doing juiced maps, T3 pinnacles, high-end farming strategies... Will you be happy doing white maps?

Will you honestly feel satisfied, when your build is not going anywhere near the good players?

---------

I know the answer to that question. No.
You do not want to spend 10 minutes epic battle hearing in your head some epic ATARI 1990` game music.

And then get a shitty regal shard as reward...

how are you making that many divs? just curiosity

He may have just been using that as an example to illustrate a point. If you're genuinely looking for farming strats, just look on youtube. They lowered the ceiling a couple weeks ago so the overlapping towers do not work, but people have documented the farming strats.

But that will likely all change in 0.4 =)

it was just curiosity. i had seen the strategies and frankly i still prefer grinding for gear not coin, so unless i get lucky af again i will just play the new content and them go to standard and just have fun playing or i will just go and play a harder game and enjoy the challenge =)

"

WhisperSlade#0532 a écrit :

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 a écrit :

If you don't want builds like that but want them all to be slow then you care more about trade and forcing players to play the way you want than you do about the overall fun of the player base.

I'd like to go through and answer more of your points specifically, but I'd like to put emphasis on one question first, which might elucidate some things. If there's something specific you want me to address, point it out.

If you could play Lightning Arrow Deadeye just as it is, but in order to ascend you must take the node "-90% item quantity" would you play it?

This is such an obviously loaded question but I will play the game...

To begin let me first explain that I, and I think this is a common thing in the game, have two types of characters which are most simply broken down into two categories. First is the league starter or the farmer if you will. Then second being the fun build. The thing you need that currency to make work weather it be a specific unique that is needed or specific thresholds of gear are needed to make it work.

So when I last played LA (.1) it was my league starter before I even knew that it was the go to "zoom" build. I had a blast playing it but there were all these new skills to try. So I farmed some currency on the LA character and helped fund some builds that I thought would be really cool and fun.

On the second character, I would absolutely take that node of "-90% item quantity". For the first I would not.

So to give you a direct answer since LA is the build in question. If that was the "fun" build in my scenario I would absolutely take that node. Because I have fun feeling strong. I have fun when a build comes online and its just a breeze in old tiers that use to be harder. I have fun being able to push higher and "complete" the game. (Arbiter of Ash is what I am considering a soft complete the game)

Now I have seen your responses on multiple threads now about this same topic and from my understanding your interpretation of zoom has nothing to do with movement speed, attack speed, or action speed but simply damage. Correct me if I am wrong here obviously but I think that is what you have been stating.

On that topic and I can respond in the other threads you have made for a more direct point by point response as well, but your issue is LA does too much damage. Now, I may have a very off take here so bare with me but I think most people when they hear zoom they are thinking about movement speed and action speed aka being able to zoom through the maps. If I one hit everything in the game but walk like a turtle I don't think most would consider that zoom so with this in mind I think you should rename your threads and argument from zoom to dps.

Back to topic at hand... If you think LA does too much damage, how do you feel about blood hunt? Hammer of the Gods? Snipe? Molten Shield? Cast on crit, ailment, etc mass comets?

Each of those hit harder than LA does. To be clear, 1 for 1. Not LA with 20 attacks per second. Legit 1 for 1. So then I must ask for clarity in your other thread because you clearly stated multiple times that the "zoom" you are against had nothing to do with movement speed, attack speed, or action speed.

All the rest of this aside. If I am playing a build I find super fun for any number of reasons, yes I would take your completely ridiculous node if that was the only way I could play that specific build.

Totally off topic question to anyone who enjoys zooming. where is the fun in one shooting a hard boss like arbiter more than one time. Like i dont get it, it's just like cheesing radahn from elden ring, funny one time but dozens of times, to me the joke stop being funny. then with those builds you make all the content like that and i get even more lost honestly. Like does it worth getting one good prism, to put an example and selling it to get even more overpower or just to accumulate more divines? I don't wanna offend and also don't expect an anwser, but i am really curious because what make these game different from other ARPG is the boss fights and the possibility to not play like that. Also is my post so i can do whatever i want lol

"

Stigardthecrow#5874 a écrit :

Totally off topic question to anyone who enjoys zooming. where is the fun in one shooting a hard boss like arbiter more than one time. Like i dont get it, it's just like cheesing radahn from elden ring, funny one time but dozens of times, to me the joke stop being funny. then with those builds you make all the content like that and i get even more lost honestly. Like does it worth getting one good prism, to put an example and selling it to get even more overpower or just to accumulate more divines? I don't wanna offend and also don't expect an anwser, but i am really curious because what make these game different from other ARPG is the boss fights and the possibility to not play like that. Also is my post so i can do whatever i want lol

I understand your question and I will attempt to answer it from the perspective of someone who has played both styles and thinks more options are better than less.

Different leagues tend to spur different play styles on how I am having fun or do I plan on "try harding" or just play with friends or do I want a moderate SSF experience.

I have played a different build each league including but not limited to the following builds...

LA Deadeye, Poison Conc Pathfinder, Leap Slam/Rolling Slam Titan, Cursed Ground Exploder Gemling, Minion Army Infernalist, Low Life Lich ED/Cont, Molten Blast Titan, and Lightning Warp Demon Form.

Each of these builds are extremely different in both move speed, action speed, attack speed, clear speed, AOE, and overall "zoom". Each of these builds was fun in a different way at a different time. Some I gave up on because of being too slow late game, some just got burnt out on a league, some needed too many items or too much currency I didn't have, and one I killed Arbiter on. I am a fairly average play time person and have clocked in 400 hours in a year. That's about 100 hours a league, 2 characters a league, and about 10 of that is the campaign per character.

So with that perspective sometimes it is about just being able to do the hardest content with ease, some of that is trying to make something not meta work, some of that is for trying to get a new "high level", think my record is 94 in a season so far.

Side note, since defense is overall crap in this game without some sort of mechanic abuse, GGG themselves have forced more players into the one shot builds. On top of that with loot being basically pure random, it is always better to run a faster build so you get more chances to actually get something. Some bosses drop specific loot so you need to be able to farm them, like you mentioned Arbiter. If I am trying to get gear from him and have to kill him multiple times to get a shot at said gear, why would I want it to be a drawn out fight like a solo mmo boss? Once or twice sure, to experience all the mechanics but when you have to do it over and over, that is not fun to a lot of people. Example on this topic and why there are countless calls for this... a shorter campaign. Its a very similar topic. People want to get their characters online faster, they want to start farming faster, they want to be able to get high enough level to wear build enabling uniques faster, etc. So most of those people speed the campaign as fast as possible. There are still people on here saying they only play the campaign then start over because that is what they enjoy. There is nothing wrong with that, but making that the ONLY way to play would be bad for the game as well.

It is the same concept.

In a zoom game you can zoom or play slow.
In a slow game you can only play slow and zoom is not allowed.

These two lines above sum it up as simple as possible.

And I leave you with this, why do you like playing slow and every fight being a "challenge"? Is that not the same thing? Once you figure out the way to handle each scenario, weather it be slow or fast, is it not the same? Why cant both types of players and the countless in between be able to enjoy the style they like as well?

As for the other part in here outside trade/loot and why is zoom fun....

Balance

If the game is balanced around zoom and as the other person stated the reason for the zerg mechanic and enemies rushing you and one shots.... If defense was actually balanced in the game and even in a pure defense slow turtle build you still get one shot, then zoom wouldnt be the automatic go to.

If you want to bring damage down sure, I am not against that. But at the same time all HP values and damage values of all enemies needs to come down a similar percentage as well as buff defenses.

If RF Templar comes to the game and I am praying it does because I really enjoy that playstyle, they need to make defense actually impactful and not parry or active block. Active block is kinda cool but parry is just bad. My opinion of course.

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 a écrit :

This is such an obviously loaded question but I will play the game...

It's a reductio ad absurdum.
Being difficult or unfavorable to answer doesn't make it loaded, I did not inject assumptions into the premise of the question.

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 a écrit :

To begin let me first explain that I, and I think this is a common thing in the game, have two types of characters which are most simply broken down into two categories. First is the league starter or the farmer if you will. Then second being the fun build. The thing you need that currency to make work weather it be a specific unique that is needed or specific thresholds of gear are needed to make it work.

So when I last played LA (.1) it was my league starter before I even knew that it was the go to "zoom" build. I had a blast playing it but there were all these new skills to try. So I farmed some currency on the LA character and helped fund some builds that I thought would be really cool and fun.

It is a common thing. This is a true statement for many, and we're discussing the meta after all, no objection to that. It's completely fine if you think it's fun of course, and the personal enjoyment you get out of your own experience is legitimate.

But like with the earlier 'divine orb button' or 'build that can clear maps in 2 seconds' examples/thought experiments earlier, the question is only an attempt at 'locating the fun' with some precision.

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 a écrit :

On the second character, I would absolutely take that node of "-90% item quantity". For the first I would not.

So to give you a direct answer since LA is the build in question. If that was the "fun" build in my scenario I would absolutely take that node. Because I have fun feeling strong. I have fun when a build comes online and its just a breeze in old tiers that use to be harder. I have fun being able to push higher and "complete" the game. (Arbiter of Ash is what I am considering a soft complete the game)

Okay good, that's fair enough. In your particular case, you genuinely find that gameplay more fun, and it's not played only for its farming capabilities. For our purposes, I won't really try to persuade you otherwise, because your experience of fun and enjoyment is legitimate.

My follow-up question would be, (and it's up to you if you feel like answering, it's fine. Just something to consider) do you think that the builds that clear fastest would still be the most popular builds, if their loot yield had that same -90% reduction? I submit that they would not be. And that's not to say that some people don't enjoy them, but it is to say that the 'fun' that we advocate for, might not be located primarily in that game being oriented around clearing as fast as possible. The -90% is (only slightly) unfair in one regard, which is that 'of course' loot is a factor in the game, which is loot-centric. In reality, the decision to play a build is a combination of factors including the play style and their farming capabilities. I'm just hoping that I can convey how farming is an aspect which weighs heavily on the popularity of builds, as a generalization.

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 a écrit :

Now I have seen your responses on multiple threads now about this same topic and from my understanding your interpretation of zoom has nothing to do with movement speed, attack speed, or action speed but simply damage. Correct me if I am wrong here obviously but I think that is what you have been stating.

On that topic and I can respond in the other threads you have made for a more direct point by point response as well, but your issue is LA does too much damage. Now, I may have a very off take here so bare with me but I think most people when they hear zoom they are thinking about movement speed and action speed aka being able to zoom through the maps. If I one hit everything in the game but walk like a turtle I don't think most would consider that zoom so with this in mind I think you should rename your threads and argument from zoom to dps.

Oh I'm glad to hear that. And believe it or not I was about to invite you over to another thread with a link, because our conversation has veered away from the OP's topic. But it sounds like there's no need.

You are absolutely correct in your interpretation. I consider fast actions speeds, movement and attacks, to be good for the game. When I'm talking 'zoom' I'm referring, pretty much exclusively, to the combat encounters.

My opinion is that having screens full of enemies being killed so fast, is not so good. While having fewer enemies with fights that last a bit longer (with loot/xp rewards scaled appropriately to compensate), which require some more versatility and adaptation to the situations and in how you engage with them, to be a better goal to reach for the gameplay.

You are also correct in how people interpret the term "zoom" (speaking of loaded) and I probably should have caught onto this sooner. I'll have to make better term selection, rather than expect people to adjust my usage of words. =D

When people discuss "fast" versus "slow" gameplay, they likely have a lot of baggage/presuppositions associated with those concepts. So yeah, my issue is wholly with the actual combat encounters, and not with the variability of action speed characters can have, which I think is good, and fun. Mobility + Meaningful encounters.

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 a écrit :

Back to topic at hand... If you think LA does too much damage, how do you feel about blood hunt? Hammer of the Gods? Snipe? Molten Shield? Cast on crit, ailment, etc mass comets?

Each of those hit harder than LA does. To be clear, 1 for 1. Not LA with 20 attacks per second. Legit 1 for 1. So then I must ask for clarity in your other thread because you clearly stated multiple times that the "zoom" you are against had nothing to do with movement speed, attack speed, or action speed.

All the rest of this aside. If I am playing a build I find super fun for any number of reasons, yes I would take your completely ridiculous node if that was the only way I could play that specific build.

Right so, it should be said first that I believe my issue with the combat encounters is a broader concern than any particular skill or build. I think some fundamental aspects need to be changed to adequately address some of PoE's underlying issues (as I see them).

So with that said, I think that not only would each skill need to be scrutinized on a case by case basis, but we'd have to take a look at their relationship with other game systems which might contribute to their strength.

Like you point out, a skill is more than its damage. It's also a factor of AoE, cooldowns, delays, attack speed, ailments & buffs applied, supports, interactions with other skills, mobility, accessibility(investment) and so on. Which is why I actually prefer to talk about these concepts in the abstract rather than blaming a particular build, skill, or even archetype, which I think only exist due to broader underlying systems and design philosophy: exponential scaling that promotes stacking, 'kill' damage thresholds on players with massive regen, etc.

Put more plainly, I think that anytime we have a situation where a character reaches a state where they are trivializing the encounters by wiping screens of monsters away in an instant, we've got symptoms of what I would consider problematic.

Drawing of attention to "what makes zoom fun" is just an attempt to have people consider why they feel that way, and to consider how it can be improved without throwing the baby out with the bath water.

It's fun talking with you, I hope to see you around in other threads too.
See you =)

"

Soulsniper1313#7576 a écrit :

"

Stigardthecrow#5874 a écrit :

Totally off topic question to anyone who enjoys zooming. where is the fun in one shooting a hard boss like arbiter more than one time. Like i dont get it, it's just like cheesing radahn from elden ring, funny one time but dozens of times, to me the joke stop being funny. then with those builds you make all the content like that and i get even more lost honestly. Like does it worth getting one good prism, to put an example and selling it to get even more overpower or just to accumulate more divines? I don't wanna offend and also don't expect an anwser, but i am really curious because what make these game different from other ARPG is the boss fights and the possibility to not play like that. Also is my post so i can do whatever i want lol

I understand your question and I will attempt to answer it from the perspective of someone who has played both styles and thinks more options are better than less.

Different leagues tend to spur different play styles on how I am having fun or do I plan on "try harding" or just play with friends or do I want a moderate SSF experience.

I have played a different build each league including but not limited to the following builds...

LA Deadeye, Poison Conc Pathfinder, Leap Slam/Rolling Slam Titan, Cursed Ground Exploder Gemling, Minion Army Infernalist, Low Life Lich ED/Cont, Molten Blast Titan, and Lightning Warp Demon Form.

Each of these builds are extremely different in both move speed, action speed, attack speed, clear speed, AOE, and overall "zoom". Each of these builds was fun in a different way at a different time. Some I gave up on because of being too slow late game, some just got burnt out on a league, some needed too many items or too much currency I didn't have, and one I killed Arbiter on. I am a fairly average play time person and have clocked in 400 hours in a year. That's about 100 hours a league, 2 characters a league, and about 10 of that is the campaign per character.

So with that perspective sometimes it is about just being able to do the hardest content with ease, some of that is trying to make something not meta work, some of that is for trying to get a new "high level", think my record is 94 in a season so far.

Side note, since defense is overall crap in this game without some sort of mechanic abuse, GGG themselves have forced more players into the one shot builds. On top of that with loot being basically pure random, it is always better to run a faster build so you get more chances to actually get something. Some bosses drop specific loot so you need to be able to farm them, like you mentioned Arbiter. If I am trying to get gear from him and have to kill him multiple times to get a shot at said gear, why would I want it to be a drawn out fight like a solo mmo boss? Once or twice sure, to experience all the mechanics but when you have to do it over and over, that is not fun to a lot of people. Example on this topic and why there are countless calls for this... a shorter campaign. Its a very similar topic. People want to get their characters online faster, they want to start farming faster, they want to be able to get high enough level to wear build enabling uniques faster, etc. So most of those people speed the campaign as fast as possible. There are still people on here saying they only play the campaign then start over because that is what they enjoy. There is nothing wrong with that, but making that the ONLY way to play would be bad for the game as well.

It is the same concept.

In a zoom game you can zoom or play slow.
In a slow game you can only play slow and zoom is not allowed.

These two lines above sum it up as simple as possible.

And I leave you with this, why do you like playing slow and every fight being a "challenge"? Is that not the same thing? Once you figure out the way to handle each scenario, weather it be slow or fast, is it not the same? Why cant both types of players and the countless in between be able to enjoy the style they like as well?

As for the other part in here outside trade/loot and why is zoom fun....

Balance

If the game is balanced around zoom and as the other person stated the reason for the zerg mechanic and enemies rushing you and one shots.... If defense was actually balanced in the game and even in a pure defense slow turtle build you still get one shot, then zoom wouldnt be the automatic go to.

If you want to bring damage down sure, I am not against that. But at the same time all HP values and damage values of all enemies needs to come down a similar percentage as well as buff defenses.

If RF Templar comes to the game and I am praying it does because I really enjoy that playstyle, they need to make defense actually impactful and not parry or active block. Active block is kinda cool but parry is just bad. My opinion of course.

Thanks for anwsering. I think most of what you say it's true tbh. the game itself it is not very farm friendly, everything you do requires a farm. Anyway where do you find those builds?, in case a wanted to give them a go next season. are the super high numbers from poe2 true? let say deadeye, for example, since ranger is the only class i haven't tried at all couse i am in a yeaar off currently and had a lot of free time. it is fogbun from mobylistycs? or should i look at poeninja? i am very lost about the meta tbh