Im fine with the EXP Penalty.

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AintCare#6513 a écrit :

its not about rewards/punishment. you are not learning, you are playing a game. if there would be nothing to risk the game would be pointless/boring.

to the 'make levelling faster' argument- poe1 did that, its worse than removing XP penalty because when you don't die much its way too fast to level now, which removed the grind form the game together with XP penalty (because you hardly feel it, if ever)

There is already enough risk - you lose a waystone, you lose a node, you lose all the precursor juice, you lose time invested, you lose potential annointment, you lose unlooted items.
Running a 6 affix t18 map annointed with 75% delirium is pretty damn risky and close to like 200 exalts or so in cost, dying makes you lose all that.
The argument that you have to, you just have to strip the player of past progress to keep the stakes high makes no sense whatsoever.

If you run Arbiter or King of the Mists you are using 3-8 divine orbs worth in material (and probably dozens of hours of time invested to get those). There is already enough risk.

I don't think you understand that PoE2 leveling is significantly slower than PoE1 leveling due to the nature of how mapping works here. It takes hundreds of hours. There is enough grind there.

Besides, why does Omen of Amelioration exist? Clearly there is a sort of loophole in game that allows you to circumvent the majority of the exp loss if you pay up in currency. Defeats your point

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AintCare#6513 a écrit :

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3689040

fair enough

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mikeab79#3627 a écrit :

Say they remove these, or some of these penalties. What happens when most to all players now reach 100? Would everyone be content with 100 being it, or would the next demand be more progression past 100? I only ask, because this very thing is/has been demanded in other games. In the other games, every time the demand is met, shorty after, the calls for more progression past max level is made. Calls for more content is made to meet the new power creep. Is this what we really want?

This argument kinda falls flat right away once you realize that this already exists in the current game. The only difference is some people will reach that point a little faster than others. If you reach 100 now with or without xp loss it reaches the same point but on a different time invested scale. The calls for more progression will always exist that is the entire point of these games.

Also games like these already have systems in place that allow leveling past 100 in a separate system. Diablo 3 has the paragon system that has infinite scaling but also has a mode that has infinite scaling monsters to keep that challenge going. On top of that scaling in Diablo 3, in order to make it so the player does not become too strong too fast they have caps on the really important paragon stats where as the less important but still useful stats have no cap.

I do not think there is anything wrong with a system that allows past 100 leveling in some shape and the argument of "that would make the game bad" just falls on deaf ears due to the fact that people want to use their character they spent time on and keep that same level of fulfilment. Once you reach level 100 you basically just tell yourself "okay time to endlessly fight bosses" or never touch the character again and play a new one, or use your strong character to item grind for your new character like what i currently do.

At this very moment once you reach about 25% in your XP bar you get this sudden feeling of "well time to avoid this mechanic until i level up so that way i do not lose the last 10 hours to something out of my control." Right now Everytime i see people playing the game they wait till they level up before doing hard content so they don't get punished because you cant lose xp if you have no xp. If you currently have 25% or more XP do not go near delirium that is pretty much a universal agreement. Why should a player feel like they have to lock away gameplay in order to not waste there time?

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Slart1bartfast#0332 a écrit :

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AintCare#6513 a écrit :

its not about rewards/punishment. you are not learning, you are playing a game. if there would be nothing to risk the game would be pointless/boring.

to the 'make levelling faster' argument- poe1 did that, its worse than removing XP penalty because when you don't die much its way too fast to level now, which removed the grind form the game together with XP penalty (because you hardly feel it, if ever)

There is already enough risk - you lose a waystone, you lose a node, you lose all the precursor juice, you lose time invested, you lose potential annointment, you lose unlooted items.
Running a 6 affix t18 map annointed with 75% delirium is pretty damn risky and close to like 200 exalts or so in cost, dying makes you lose all that.
The argument that you have to, you just have to strip the player of past progress to keep the stakes high makes no sense whatsoever.

If you run Arbiter or King of the Mists you are using 3-8 divine orbs worth in material (and probably dozens of hours of time invested to get those). There is already enough risk.

I don't think you understand that PoE2 leveling is significantly slower than PoE1 leveling due to the nature of how mapping works here. It takes hundreds of hours. There is enough grind there.

Besides, why does Omen of Amelioration exist? Clearly there is a sort of loophole in game that allows you to circumvent the majority of the exp loss if you pay up in currency. Defeats your point

yeah you lose stuff you put into to the map if you juicing it, if you wouldn't juice you wouldn't lose those things, that's your choice and that's the point. and yes trust me i do understand poe2 leveling is slower than current poe1, poe1 turned into a mobile game bro. poe2 has a proper xp curve- same was true of poe1 at the start. omens exist don;t defeat my point, its a rare item you can use to amliorate the xp loss if you choose to do so, you want it for free.

again, there is a reaosn for xp penalty, none of you are even trying to understand it, you just going around picking at things unrelated to it. this convo, like always, will go on in circles, forever

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AintCare#6513 a écrit :

omens exist don;t defeat my point, its a rare item you can use to amliorate the xp loss if you choose to do so, you want it for free.

again, there is a reaosn for xp penalty, none of you are even trying to understand it, you just going around picking at things unrelated to it. this convo, like always, will go on in circles, forever

yeah, the omen cost like 70 exalts, which is not something you can't afford at say lvl 96.

There is nothing to understand, that's the thing. It's an antiquated outdated mechanic that is just plain bad game design disincentivizing you from taking risks. That's why literally no other game has it. And the few that do have similar mechanics, like the soulsborne games or even D2, allow you to recoup them through active gameplay. So they turn a loss into a win through active gameplay, which is at least thoughtful implementation of the mechanic.

Here there is nothing, just punishment for playing the game essentially, with the punishment growing exponentially with the level and with engagement of higher tier content. And once I decide, hey I don't care about leveling anymore, the punishment immediately vanishes, making all this talk about risk and it's necessity completely obsolete. Just as it is completely obsolete before you reach like lvl 90.

The funny thing is it doesn't even set you back in levels. Due to the exponential nature of exp requirement for leveling, you can die a 100 times going from level 70 to level 95 and the exp loss probably won't even amount to a single level difference if you hadn't died. It's just a gigantic time waster. Nothing more. And in an uber-grindy game like this we really do not need mechanics that solely exist to waste your time.

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Gang5ter15#1071 a écrit :

I dont think the EXP Penalty is an issue. I dont mind it existing.

I do think the game has an issue with dying being to punishing in one way or another.
Dying makes you:
- lose exp
- lose a map
- lose map modifiers (breach, tablets, etc.)
- you cant anointed map on an attempted node
- lose citadel bosses
- lose potential loot
- u maybe have to use another map

That together is a problem.

On top of that, GGG doesn't seem to acknowledge why people are dying. It feels like they gas light us into thinking "if you die...it's because you/your build are/is not good enough".

The vast majority of my deaths are too things that don't have counter-play. One-shot stuff killing me from the other side of the screen, visual clarity, death mechanics I can't even see, dodges that require capped out move speed and millisecond timing, bugs, or being instant swarmed and micro stunned. None of that has something for me to learn from.

It's just unbalanced game design. Which would be fine, except for the fact that GGG is punishing me for it. If I'm dying to stuff that doesn't have counter play, then there is no learning experience, and it's just frustrating.

So yes, pick 1 thing to lose, not everything that you mentioned, especially since most deaths for people who make it to late gamer aren't going to have a lot of counter play to it.

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Slart1bartfast#0332 a écrit :

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AintCare#6513 a écrit :

omens exist don;t defeat my point, its a rare item you can use to amliorate the xp loss if you choose to do so, you want it for free.

again, there is a reaosn for xp penalty, none of you are even trying to understand it, you just going around picking at things unrelated to it. this convo, like always, will go on in circles, forever

yeah, the omen cost like 70 exalts, which is not something you can't afford at say lvl 96.

There is nothing to understand, that's the thing. It's an antiquated outdated mechanic that is just plain bad game design disincentivizing you from taking risks. That's why literally no other game has it. And the few that do, like the soulsborne games or even D2, allow you to recoup them through active gameplay. So they turn a loss into a win through active gameplay, which is at least thoughtful implementation of the mechanic.

Here there is nothing, just punishment for playing the game essentially, with the punishment growing exponentially with the level and with engagement of higher tier content. And once I decide, hey I don't care about leveling anymore, the punishment immediately vanishes, making all this talk about risk and it's necessity completely obsolete. Just as it is completely obsolete before you reach like lvl 90.

The funny thing is it doesn't even set you back in levels. Due to the exponential nature of exp requirement for leveling, you can die a 100 times going from level 70 to level 95 and the exp loss probably won't even amount to a single level difference if you hadn't died. It's just a gigantic time waster. Nothing more. And in an uber-grindy game like this we really do not need mechanics that solely exist to waste your time.

its not disincentivizing you from taking risks, you just don't like to take risks, of any kind it seems, because XP penalty is prob one of the least impactful wagers there is in this game. punishment- nope, its a wager.the exponential nature of exp requirement for leveling yeh wager gets higher.

this wager is what makes the game fun. any game is more fun with a wager

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AintCare#6513 a écrit :

this wager is what makes the game fun. any game is more fun with a wager

There exits a gamemode that already does that. It's called hardcore.

You can philosophize as much as you want but reality clashes with your theories. If people set out the goal to level past 90 they start taking progressively less risk to achieve it because the wager gets to high for the potential reward that can be obtained. that's a fact, ask any of your fellow gamers. They will confirm.
And if they don't care to level past 90 then they do not wager at all, according to you removing all the fun from the game.

So the mechanic of exp loss in reality completely fails at achieving what it is set out to do according to your theory. The player isn't exhilarated at the prospect of his wager ever increasing, he stops engaging with risk because it is just not worth it.

But I guess we won't see eye to eye here. Personally, I would prefer that softcore mode isn't ham-fisted into some sort of hardcore light for some lofty philosophy rooted in bad game design principles from the last millenium

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Slart1bartfast#0332 a écrit :

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AintCare#6513 a écrit :

this wager is what makes the game fun. any game is more fun with a wager

There exits a gamemode that already does that. It's called hardcore.

You can philosophize as much as you want but reality clashes with your theories. If people set out the goal to level past 90 they start taking progressively less risk to achieve it because the wager gets to high for the potential reward that can be obtained. that's a fact, ask any of your fellow gamers. They will confirm.
And if they don't care to level past 90 then they do not wager at all, according to you removing all the fun from the game.

So the mechanic of exp loss in reality completely fails at achieving what it is set out to do according to your theory. The player isn't exhilarated at the prospect of his wager ever increasing, he stops engaging with risk because it is just not worth it.

But I guess we won't see eye to eye here. Personally, I would prefer that softcore mode isn't ham-fisted into some sort of hardcore light for some lofty philosophy rooted in bad game design principles from the last millenium

hardcore argument once again- another fallacy without trying to understand the reason. the game has no goal to level past 90, this was repeated by devs many times. reality is simple you just refuse to accept it

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AintCare#6513 a écrit :

hardcore argument once again- another fallacy without trying to understand the reason. the game has no goal to level past 90, this was repeated by devs many times. reality is simple you just refuse to accept it

Brother, you are the only one who uses fallacies here to not have to engage with actual arguments. Like this post, it's just an appeal to authority.