Fixing Melee (Warrior/Mace)

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ScandiDiver#0604 a écrit :

They will never ever fix melee with that mindset. To be honest that answer just sounds to me like big copium from a ranged fanboy doing mental gymnastics to justify no downsides only benefits from ranged.

Nah, that's not Hayes. The thing to keep in mind is he's typically coming from a more MMO background. And there, you have the team dynamics, with a healer and a tank to keep the damage dealers alive, as well as fights that are typically a bit longer. So there, the damage over the course of the fight can't differ that much from one DPS to the next, provided both are filling the same role (say ST damage dealer). But that is over the course of the fight. A rogue will need to have higher potential DPS than a wizard, to compensate for positional requirements, time spent closing on the mobs, and likely having to spend more time avoiding mob mechanics. These things will mean that, in the end, the realized DPS will be about the same.

For a single player game, the dynamics change. And it can go either way, depending on how easily mobs can be eliminated. If players can kill mobs quickly or easily keep the fight ranged, then ranged's benefit goes up, because bullets travel faster than players and the ranged type will not have to worry about losing potential DPS keeping the fight ranged, typically. And so melee then needs higher DPS per fight to compensate. But conversely, if mobs do not die fast and can generally close, then ranged characters are the ones that potentially need higher DPS, to compensate for being glass cannons. On the assumption that the ranged have less built in defenses, relying on the "don't let them touch you" layer of defense. The extreme of this being a tank build versus a glass cannon one.

Or to put it another way, imagine if, in this game, ranged spells acted like Molten Blast, and stopped you from being able to freely move. This would drastically increase the amount of damage ranged types take, especially if enemies weren't super easy to obliterate, and consequently, change the entire risk versus reward dynamic. ES users in particular would suffer, since it would be much harder to avoid getting hit long enough for the shield to recharge while trying to deal damage.

At the end of the day, it is a matter of balancing the risk versus reward and PITA versus reward. The higher the risk, the greater the cost of the risk, and the more annoyance you have to deal with, the greater the reward needs to be.

I think the slow mace needs some tools to move enemies to desired areas.
Currently what Ive seen mace builds have "increased area of effect" builds.
"you can miss if you hit the entire map"

A possible solution:
Shield wall circle trap build?
Yeah... there is a gem to turn shield wall into a circle, but there should be another gem to let Shield wall to be casted far away.


1. You trap enemies inside circle
2. BONK
3. ...
4. fun

There are enemies who do this with players anyway. Shield wall would explode into enemies face for extra damage.

And there are a few "gravity spell" that could be given to warriors. mages have gravity spells, warriors could have SMASH-terraforming, point is the same.


A secondary question:
Does spell cast effects or attack speed even mace skills?
I play a warrior, but I chose a different build path because I felt the windup too detrimental... (and found more fun in a true masoch-- I mean thorn-shatter warbringer build)

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Kraivan#1745 a écrit :

I think the slow mace needs some tools to move enemies to desired areas.
Currently what Ive seen mace builds have "increased area of effect" builds.
"you can miss if you hit the entire map"

A possible solution:
Shield wall circle trap build?
Yeah... there is a gem to turn shield wall into a circle, but there should be another gem to let Shield wall to be casted far away.


1. You trap enemies inside circle
2. BONK
3. ...
4. fun

There are enemies who do this with players anyway. Shield wall would explode into enemies face for extra damage.

And there are a few "gravity spell" that could be given to warriors. mages have gravity spells, warriors could have SMASH-terraforming, point is the same.


A secondary question:
Does spell cast effects or attack speed even mace skills?
I play a warrior, but I chose a different build path because I felt the windup too detrimental... (and found more fun in a true masoch-- I mean thorn-shatter warbringer build)

I'm all about more ways to influence skills like that, but just focusing Shield skills won't do it. We definitely need ways to influence Wind Up speed, though, a handful of passives around Red and dotted elsewhere in the tree that affect Wind Up skills' use time would be an amazing idea. I'd already edited that in as an idea the other night to my OP.

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 a écrit :

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Kraivan#1745 a écrit :

I think the slow mace needs some tools to move enemies to desired areas.
Currently what Ive seen mace builds have "increased area of effect" builds.
"you can miss if you hit the entire map"

A possible solution:
Shield wall circle trap build?
Yeah... there is a gem to turn shield wall into a circle, but there should be another gem to let Shield wall to be casted far away.


1. You trap enemies inside circle
2. BONK
3. ...
4. fun

There are enemies who do this with players anyway. Shield wall would explode into enemies face for extra damage.

And there are a few "gravity spell" that could be given to warriors. mages have gravity spells, warriors could have SMASH-terraforming, point is the same.


A secondary question:
Does spell cast effects or attack speed even mace skills?
I play a warrior, but I chose a different build path because I felt the windup too detrimental... (and found more fun in a true masoch-- I mean thorn-shatter warbringer build)

I'm all about more ways to influence skills like that, but just focusing Shield skills won't do it. We definitely need ways to influence Wind Up speed, though, a handful of passives around Red and dotted elsewhere in the tree that affect Wind Up skills' use time would be an amazing idea. I'd already edited that in as an idea the other night to my OP.

Well... its an example option.

But a two handed mace skill could be helpful too:
Swipe:
swinging your two handed weapon, slowing/rooting enemies and pushing them to position. Like directed "knockback" mechanic.

Or not sure once all skill will be available I can imagine Maraduer with some net-cast ability or druid can have option.
Lets not forget that we don't have our "neighbor class" skills unlike other available classes.

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Kraivan#1745 a écrit :

Well... its an example option.

But a two handed mace skill could be helpful too:
Swipe:
swinging your two handed weapon, slowing/rooting enemies and pushing them to position. Like directed "knockback" mechanic.

Or not sure once all skill will be available I can imagine Maraduer with some net-cast ability or druid can have option.
Lets not forget that we don't have our "neighbor class" skills unlike other available classes.

Don't forget, Marauder will be Axe based at its core, which will play (presumably) differently from mace. Only spells are not weapon reliant to cast.

Thing I find interesting in all these posts (I've made several) is you get some warriors/mace bro's saying "nah its fine" - I mean I have a 90+ warrior, 90+ merc, 90+ monk, 80+ bloodmage etc.

With my warrior I can clear T16 juiced breach maps, kill bosses etc sure, but compared to (which is the important thing here "balance") my other classes it's an absolute torture machine. It's slow, it doesn't clear as fast or clear, it's damage out put single target is ok when you're alone but in the group by the time you drop a hammer the boss is dead etc.

You can get decent life regen yep, not nearly as good as ES.
You can get good life as a warrior but 1000's less than if you're a merc or bloodmage (wtf bro?)
You can get decent armor, what is decent? You know to take a single white mob but that's about it.
You can spec and max your block out which helps but then you lose a ton of damage.
You can wear heavy armor but then you get penalities for movement which is ridiculous because you're a fucking strong warrior (or strength stacking class)

The whole point of this thread and others, really is warrior can be played but it's slow and weak and squishy (unless you take off armor, put on a see thru dress and stack energy shield) - it needs a ton of work, they mentioned at the interview the morning of the patch conference it needs to be brough up A LOTTTTTT - I don't reckon it'll happen. The new weapons wont help much as the builds will still follow the same progression path unless they add a ton of new content to the passive tree. Damage nodes, life nodes, attack speed nodes etc, all the same lol just a different skill to click your mouse on.

They could make some easy changes to make it more enjoyable for those who play it; buff the damage of stampede, shield charge, rolling slam, give the armour nodes a double or triple multiple of what they are now - this probably still wont be enough, add some higher life nodes on the warrior side or in the ascendancy the 15% adds like 500 to titan, thats less than the life cost of a level 18 skill with blood magic. Block needs a rework too, needs more love, less passives.

TLDR; Warrior still sucks, needs massive buff. All other classes absolutely wreck it. Fact.