Synthesis power creep vs Atlas follow up?

So, I first played poe when it first came out, finished the few acts there were and got bored, left for years.

Came back halfway through Betrayal league to check it out again.

I loved what I saw, in how the game had grown and changed and become far more than it was. Comparing it to any diablo game at that point would just be heresy, since it offered nothing like PoE does now, while when it first launched there were some sylistic differences, but not much else. It's safe to say PoE is vastly better and carries far more depth than any of it's looter predecessors at this point.

With only half a league to manage, I still managed an uber elder kill on my second character for the league in the last couple of weeks. I have a reason to mention this I'll get back to in a bit.

I'm told only 1% of players achieve this in a league, but I expect it's probably more since I could do it with only half a league, no RMT, and really no understanding of the game or how it works or the various game modes and how to interact with them.

I didn't manage to get to lv 100 though, but did get to 98, and even then I didn't have my gear min/maxed at highest possible totals, nor am I a super talented gamer that could ever compete in various e sports or anything like that. If anything, I'm probably a pretty decent gamer that just plays more than a typical casual player who puts in 4 hours a week.

Even now, i'm not playing PoE as much as I could possibly play it and I'm already about half way geared for uber elder again, because I'm not learning all of this from scratch, and I have a secondary currency farming character to help afford the gear. That said, I'm about 98% solo play too, though i do trade, so all that directly affects my drops and progression.

This brings me to synethesis mechanics. I honestly like the game mode more than Betrayal at present, mostly because I can't entirely ignore betrayal, meaning, I'm kind of forced to play it and I don't like that. I want to choose which game modes I engage in for which rewards, meaning, if I want to do betrayal mechanics, I'd rather just commit to farming that rather than say, delve or temples or whatever.

Because of the forced nature of intervention and how rippy it is, I really don't like how it's implemented right now in that you absolutely have to every so often, regardless if you want to do syndicates or not, suffer an attack that is likely to lag and kill you if you're taking on a challenging map that you're just barely geared for. As I understand many people even DC when this happens because of the system stress. I haven't had that happen, but I'd be super upset if it did say, post level 90 when xp starts to cost you several exalts to get at any reasonable rate via breaches.

This kinda sucks as a player. Maybe not kinda, it really sucks (especially for HC, which I won't do because of server DC's being pretty common). I like that if I want to do incursions I can do them. If I want to delve I can do that, if I want to do bestiary I can do that... but I don't have to, and I can set my own priorities and goals, but with intervention I'm up for losing 10% of my xp at any given moment, just cuz. It's kinda harsh.

I'd much prefer how it was in betrayal, where I could leave it on research and simply not engage it until i wanted to. That was far superior to me as a game experience.

That said, synthesis mechanics are pretty neat, i like how it's complex and has tons of modifiers so while it's mostly worthless junk, you can, if you're super diligent, craft game breaking gear... and that brings me full circle to why I mentioned my return experience earlier.

If I can, as a "new player" manage to clear the endgame, in under 2 months without RMT aid or synthesis items... then what benefit do I get from having stronger gear that requires a lot of work/investment?

My criticism is this:

Power creep is inevitable during a lifespan of a game (especially games as a service), but with new instances of it there needs to be increased challenge.

For this I'm not advocating for a simple buff to shaper, elder and atziri, that would be actually frustrating because it simply moves the goal posts.

What I'd like to see is the follow up to the uber elder fight. The next phase.

What do we do? Do we chase elder back to some other dimension or something in a quest to become a new avenging god of wraeclast or whatever?

Whatever it is, we need a challenge to use the new gear on, otherwise adding it is needless and unnecessary power creep, which actually unbalances the game... not that balance is a strict priority obviously, but there is a very clear progression that works in PoE, if you learn the mechanics and how to use the systems in place, there is, strictly speaking, a very thoughtful and proper game loop of challenge vs reward.

I know you're buffing the synth bosses and such, but that's only a supplement of content, what I'm seeking is more story.

By adding more reward without adding new challenge via story content, we're kind of corrupting that loop.

I'd really like to see a full on content follow up to uber elder fights in a future game mode. Perhaps a second atlas in a new alien dimension unlike wraeclast?

I understand this is hard because a lot of people won't ever experience that content, but more of them will now that synthesis can make players more powerful, faster, and that's only going to happen more as synthesis mechanics are better understood by the player base in future leagues because more power in the hands of the players means more content becomes more trivial, sooner.

Please consider in future leagues adding something more past the current atlas stuff. It's all really great, but there needs to be a thing after that, something more to do. I'm not the best or most active player. I'm certain non bot players were able to take out uber elder in less than the first two weeks of the league... so, what to do after that?

Just get better gear to use on challenges you already beat? Get richer for the sake of getting richer? make a vanity character just because?

These are fine things to do if they appeal to the player in question, but content would be better since it wouldn't rely on a player having any of those specific motivations.

I'm hoping I'm already preaching to the choir, and you guys have already thought this through and have plans for future story expansions past the current atlas objectives.

Here is a challenge for you - make a character that doesn't die to betrayal encounters. Spending so much time talking about how the game is easy while wanting to lock betrayal is kind of......I don't know, weird.

"

Johny_Snow a écrit :

Here is a challenge for you - make a character that doesn't die to betrayal encounters. Spending so much time talking about how the game is easy while wanting to lock betrayal is kind of......I don't know, weird.

I feel like the syndicate are getting revenge on me for kicking them in the nuts last league by adding epic lag to their arsenal, cheating bashtards...

Ah, the typical "i just started the game and beat it while blindfolded" post. Checks profile: fotm meta build. Okay.

I hope GGG listens to you and make the game harder, so that i cant even kill Hillock without going meta.

Since you are a new player, here is some useful information: the skill balance in this game is BROKEN AS HELL.

Start a melee char that is not Bladeflurry/Warchief/Molten strike, do the same content, and tell me your opinion once again after that. Or just play SSF.

Ofc you won't do that. You are addicted to the full screen oneshot explosions. It would feel awful. So you have to remain bored i guess.

"

I understand this is hard because a lot of people won't ever experience that content, but more of them will now that synthesis can make players more powerful, faster, and that's only going to happen more as synthesis mechanics are better understood by the player base in future leagues because more power in the hands of the players means more content becomes more trivial, sooner.

Why put in new content if you did not fully enjoy the current one? You just ignored all the content with you OP meta build.

"

It's safe to say PoE is vastly better and carries far more depth than any of it's looter predecessors at this point.

Yeah, lot of depth. I see you thoroughly enjoying the depth of the game with your third winter orb elementalist. Btw i respect the fact that you did not ditch the skill after the slight nerf.

"

I'm told only 1% of players achieve this in a league, but I expect it's probably more since I could do it with only half a league, no RMT, and really no understanding of the game or how it works or the various game modes and how to interact with them.

Dont worry the rest 99% of us is just playing the game for what it is (or enjoying the depth you were talking about, maybe?). Not reading the meta guide and execute what is written there. But thanks for your concern. Sorry for the toxicity, blame GGG for it.

Well that's not entirely true. The gap between spells and melee might widen, but while the base content difficulty stays the same, melee gets boosted as well.
There are a few reasons why most people go with meta skills.
-They are usually new skills, so people want to try them.
-They are not necessarily hard to build, or play, so they are friendly for newcomers.
-They are usually enjoyable it their playstyle.

And this highlights a big problem, in my opinion, with the game. There are too many different things implemented, to be properly balanced.

Let's take a few examples.

If you somehow ensure that powerful builds are expensive to build and require more effort, SSF gets hurt. Right now, if good builds are made SSF friendly, they become 10 times easier to optimize in trade league. Do you separate SSF completely and implement different mods or easier access to specific gear?

If you choose to increase the difficulty of the game every league, how do you ensure that all skills and play styles with all those numerous interactions, get boosted from newly implemented mods?

If you choose to make these mods temporary and reset the powercreep with every league, standard players will still have issues with balance.

Now if you somehow manage to find a way to change the game in an horizontal way every league, without increasing the power levels, would be ideal. But finding new ways to make 50 skills fun to play every league, is 10 times harder than simply increasing the numbers.

In my opinion, this thing cannot be reversed without the risk of losing more players than the ones that you could win back.

Did this guy make the exact same Winter Orb build three times and then come to the forums and write a treatise on a bunch of things that need to be improved/added?

Interesting...........

"

Johny_Snow a écrit :

Here is a challenge for you - make a character that doesn't die to betrayal encounters. Spending so much time talking about how the game is easy while wanting to lock betrayal is kind of......I don't know, weird.

I actually haven't died from syndicates yet, I've been smart and keeping my gear above level because I read the patch notes and knew this was going to be a thing.

It doesn't stop it from being an issue later though.

here's the thing.

If you're a jug with infinite health, this isn't a problem.

If you're any sort of caster, this can be an issue because you're health realistically caps around 7k ish.

I happen to like casters, i find melee folk boring and simplistic in virtually every game, and not every caster build is CI viable.

Saying/suggesting I should "L2p" is kinda silly bro. I get the game. I don't know everything, obviously, nobody does, but I understand enough to research and figure out what i need to do.

"

Motopsycho a écrit :

Ah, the typical "i just started the game and beat it while blindfolded" post. Checks profile: fotm meta build. Okay.

I hope GGG listens to you and make the game harder, so that i cant even kill Hillock without going meta.

Since you are a new player, here is some useful information: the skill balance in this game is BROKEN AS HELL.

Start a melee char that is not Bladeflurry/Warchief/Molten strike, do the same content, and tell me your opinion once again after that. Or just play SSF.

Ofc you won't do that. You are addicted to the full screen oneshot explosions. It would feel awful. So you have to remain bored i guess.

"

I understand this is hard because a lot of people won't ever experience that content, but more of them will now that synthesis can make players more powerful, faster, and that's only going to happen more as synthesis mechanics are better understood by the player base in future leagues because more power in the hands of the players means more content becomes more trivial, sooner.

Why put in new content if you did not fully enjoy the current one? You just ignored all the content with you OP meta build.

"

It's safe to say PoE is vastly better and carries far more depth than any of it's looter predecessors at this point.

Yeah, lot of depth. I see you thoroughly enjoying the depth of the game with your third winter orb elementalist. Btw i respect the fact that you did not ditch the skill after the slight nerf.

"

I'm told only 1% of players achieve this in a league, but I expect it's probably more since I could do it with only half a league, no RMT, and really no understanding of the game or how it works or the various game modes and how to interact with them.

Dont worry the rest 99% of us is just playing the game for what it is (or enjoying the depth you were talking about, maybe?). Not reading the meta guide and execute what is written there. But thanks for your concern. Sorry for the toxicity, blame GGG for it.

"Did this guy make the exact same Winter Orb build three times"
Also i didn't make the same winter orb 3x. My first build was a soulwrest nekro, I just canibalized it because it sucked at clear speed.

Also I'm not making any sort of demands... I'm stating facts. Facts are, slower clear speed melee with more health will make the game even easier, rather than playing squishy casters. It also makes the game slower, which I'm not for, particularly because leagues have an expiration date.

Additionally I researched several builds to suit my playstyle. Please don't talk down at me like I'm a foolish idiot.

"Start a melee char that is not Bladeflurry/Warchief/Molten strike, do the same content, and tell me your opinion once again after that. Or just play SSF."

As i said, i don't like melee, pretty much in any game (though I do use it in warframe because it's simply the most effective there). If you do, that's cool. Here's the thing I find problematic with melee in PoE: at later levels
if you don't kill them before they can attack, certain packs just equal dead immediately, and even then corrupted blood stacks can wipe you unless you're lucky enough to vaal a jewel properly. SSF, I did try (started that way), and I found that maps were unplayable. Killing kitava was easy (particularly because they hand you gear), but after that I couldn't get my resists maxed... which is to say, I "could" but it would take a dozens hours of grinding to get resist gear to drop that I would need. To me, just grinding for the sake of grinding when I could just trade and save 100 hours makes ZERO sense. If YOU like that, that's cool, you play your way bro, I'm not knocking it, it's just not for me. Saying I should enjoy the game the way you do is kinda, eh... nah.

You can choose to arbitrarily gimp yourself in your own name of fun, and that's valid, but that's a choice based on your priorities of what you consider fun, and not every can, has to, or will agree with that.

I can't see spending 100 hours doing what I could do in 2 min with a trade site. Call me not HC enough or not in love enough with the grind, but it's just not something I would do, or I would think, anything people should be expected to do (hence why it's an option). I do think it's a viable up challenge if you really want to push yourself, but I'm not that into grinding.

This is why I'm also someone smart enough to go to the forums and youtube and learn from the people that came before me to figure out what's going to be best for me. Perhaps you refuse to do this in your own name of fun, and that's a valid choice, but so is mine and it doesn't make one better than the other.

"Why put in new content if you did not fully enjoy the current one? You just ignored all the content with you OP meta build."

I think you don't understand, I did enjoy it-- I even went so far as to research additional lore on the wiki because I thought it was neat... If I didn't enjoy it I wouldn't be back for a new league. Saying I didn't enjoy it the same as you or someone else, sure, that's fair. I did try to make a summoner on my own first, then after kitava I figured out I really needed to follow a build because there was just too much to try and learn on a limited time frame. Then I got that build high up, and realized the clear speed sucked, so I made a character with better clear speed. Additionally, I've always just liked casters. Bright flashy effects on screen and even before that back when pen and paper tabletops were all we had, I prefered casters as they are just my personal flavor.

Saying I didn't enjoy it the same as you do, doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it at all, that's hyperbolic rhetoric, and you're strawmanning.

Now if you want to go play anti meta, you're entitled to, but to me that's just adding extra grind, it doesn't make the game harder, it makes it drag out longer, which to me, is less fun. You're entitled to your own idea of fun however. I mean if you really want a challenge why not just play with naked gear? I mean that would make the game harder right? Come on now...

Here's the thing. I don't mind RNG existing, if the odds are reasonable. Once I figure out a way to circumvent the current odds into a better method of grind, then I do that to save time. If you don't want to you don't have to, but it's a valid way to play, just like yours is, and we don't have to agree on this, and I don't think we will.

Additionally, I'm not sure how having more story content to meet the current power level of the game somehow hurts you and your apparent play style. It seems like you really only benefit there, and I'm not sure why you are being so contrarian unless you're just projecting other frustrations and inadequacies that don't apply here as an outlet for venting those issues that are unrelated to me and what I'm asking for.

"Yeah, lot of depth. I see you thoroughly enjoying the depth of the game with your third winter orb elementalist. Btw i respect the fact that you did not ditch the skill after the slight nerf."

The nerf is kind of irrelevant and i knew it would be. The only time it matters is for high end boss clearing, because everything else dies before it can hit you. For high end bosses they telegraph their attacks and the only one I found to be much challenge was uber elder because there's a lot on the screen at once and I didn't have much time to learn it (beat it first shot, but with one death, dropped a shaper ball inside right where the bubble spawned like a half a second before the bubble spawned in, it sucked. It wasn't 100% unavoidable, but it was pretty darned harsh).

"Dont worry the rest 99% of us is just playing the game for what it is (or enjoying the depth you were talking about, maybe?). Not reading the meta guide and execute what is written there. But thanks for your concern. Sorry for the toxicity, blame GGG for it."

I'm not sure why GGG is responsible for your response. I see that other people are able to agree or disagree in a much more reasonable sounding way. I think how you choose to respond is more about you than about the company. I can understand you're probably frustrated with certain choices they have made, and you're probably mad at me for choosing to play a meta build... but that's not really your call to make in either case.

All I'm asking for here really is more story content to enjoy to keep up with the current power level of the game, I'm kind of shocked that you seem opposed to that.

Additionally winter orb isn't "THE" be all end all meta. There are other things I could have played, and other things I considered. I chose that because it suited what I wanted, which was clear speed, because my first build (summoner) was great, but I realized that clear speed was more important late game. There are other metas to play.

As with any large and complex game with many systems at play nothing is going to be 100% balanced, that's just how it is, and frankly balance sucks anyway, it sucks the fun out of the game. If you're not familiar with why, game design theory covers this pretty extensively as to why buffs are better than nerfs in most cases, and what true balance actually means (see nintendo's karate, it sucked as a game, but was balanced. Pong is another great example of balance, and while it's an historic game, it's a game, like karate, that none of us play on the regular because it sucks.)

Frankly I'm concerned as to why you seem offended that someone would ask for more story content. That seems really weird and it seems like something I'd expect any legit veteran of a game to be in support of...

I also have plans to make other types of characters this league to try out different stuff.

I had considered making a MF ranger but realized the gear would be too expensive at league start.

I had considered outfitting other characters, but also realized that again, currency would be an issue if I didn't have a proper clear speed and mapping character to start. This is why I chose to go with winter orb again as a league starter. I already knew about how the economy would allow that it was easier to get stuff early and then I'd have an easier time outfitting other characters later.

The reason I have a second one in this league is to keep it low level to farm delve low level without outleveling the drops, and the higher level is to level the character and farm higher level stuff. This allows me more currency and map progression simultaneously while not needing to get all different gear for the second character. it's efficiency. I designed this to combat some of the problems I had last league. Eventually the second character will be replaced by a proper magic find so I can then fund other types of builds.

I kind of resent that you insist on taking a tone that talks down at me because maybe I don't know everything about the game that you do, as if that somehow invalidates my experience or opinion. If you have something so great and wise to share, perhaps teach in a charismatic manner and you'll find I might be more receptive, but so far your points of "don't play meta, play HC SSF, play melee types you don't like" are all things I've already carefully considered and disregarded.

I'd also like to point out you don't get to speak for 99% of players or even a sub sect of players, you get to speak for you. You'll find, I'm sure, that as with any game forums, opinions are split in many directions for various reasons, and the most popular opinion is not to have one (30k concurrent players at present, most of which don't post on the forums) because most players are casual and realize they aren't informed enough to have a meaningful opinion, or, alternately, don't care enough to have one/share one. If you want your argument to stand, make it stand on it's own merit, not by using eye roll worthy tropes of rhetoric (my opinion is popular according to me, therefor, I win!). It's not impressive to me and it actually works against your argument for anyone that understands how debates work because they know that if your argument had merrit, it wouldn't need to rely on rhetoric.

Of course im mad. There was a time when this game required some thought process and you had to make meaninful choices. Unique items gave huge penalties and you had to work around them. Now power is given for free, for everybody. You can build a shaper viable char from 10c.
GGG making these balance changes to let casuals see the endgame content, while spitting in the faces of those who had to work hard to reach it before.

You play winter orb because it is fast and cheap (your words). Yeah, that is exactly my problem. You are getting power cheaply. You can skip a lot of grinding (content) because you chose a broken skill. The main content in this game is grindig, even the company name tells you that much. If you chose an op meta, you dont have to grind that much to see the endgame. You chose the short route twice and now you are wondering what to do.

Ask for more and harder content on the forums, because you are done with the game. This was your decision.

My decision was however to play the game as i see it fit. Gimping myself with shtty skills so that i can get my "hard game" experience back. No, thats not normal. But what can i do? GGG trivialized their own game, yet im still trying to have fun with it. This is the sad reality of the game.

Im not mad at you personally. You just reptesent the new, poweraddicted players that GGG created with their poor balance decisions.

But you haven't really done anything hard lol