Sanctuary of Thought (Hierophant) OP?

Tala Moana,

I post this in feedback, because I want to know what the community thinks about this.
I was looking at the Ascendancy class changes and there was one that made me calculating a bit more: Sanctuary of Thought has been buffed from 15% to 25% (and the extra manacost reduction on top of it), while Divine Guidance gained another +50 mana.

I quickly put a tree together for a CI Hyaon build:

http://poedb.tw/us/passive-skill-tree/AAAABAUCAQOaBx4LYQxfDXwOSBEvEVARlhXXGFYZ1xpsGyUcpxzcIvQmiCj6KU8qUysKKyYsvzW5PAU9X0WdSVFJsUqYS65SU1NSU6VUR1ZjV8lX4lugXfJodGjybAttGXFicql1KnflfA58S3zZf8aCm4LHhq6LjIw2jHaPGo_6kyeTlZRclKCVLpZ0l_SaO5rgna6ePJ7En9-hL6a-pwinK6dVrTOu_a9ssnC0DLaGtzC4k76KwGbEFcT2xq7K08xm18_ZW9pi5CLoWukC6rrr7uwY7C7sOO0g73zviPDV9zL3wfk3-d356A==

So this tree gives me 85% increased mana. The two jewel slots left and right from the Witch are to be socketed with two Healthy Mind jewels for another 100% increased mana.

I also plan to use a Dream Fragments, mainly for the freeze immunity, which also gives me 20% increased mana.

=> Total: 205% increased mana

Then, what's my base flat mana?

- 40 base
- 60 alira normal
- 500 minimum from high level char
- 150 from Divine Guidance
- 34 from tree
- 170 minimum from intelligence
- 100 minimum from my CI gear (on shield and boots)

=> Total: 1000 at the very minimum and easily achieved

==> Total mana: at least 3000, can go up much more if you dedicate to it.

===> Total flat ES from Sanctuary of Thought: 25% of 3000 = 750 flat ES!!!

That is like an extra chest piece!

And all this for just 4 ascendancy points... .

With Vitality and Discipline up, I will easily achieve 15k ES and 1,5k regen.

Someone with GG gear, could possibly achieve 20k ES / 2k regen.

Doesn't this seem a bit too OP?

It doesn't work like that. Increased modifiers from mana and ES add together on that converted part. (Like how 'added fire damage' works.)

If you have 200% increased mana and 200% increased ES, and 1000 base mana, you will get 250 extra base ES, which will be increased by your mana and ES modifiers.

(1000 * 0.25) * (1 + 2.00 + 2.00) = 250 * 5 = 1250 total increased ES from that node.

"

dudiobugtron a écrit :

It doesn't work like that. Increased modifiers from mana and ES add together on that converted part. (Like how 'added fire damage' works.)

If you have 200% increased mana and 200% increased ES, and 1000 base mana, you will get 250 extra base ES, which will be increased by your mana and ES modifiers.

(1000 * 0.25) * (1 + 2.00 + 2.00) = 250 * 5 = 1250 total increased ES from that node.

I don't think so.

It is Extra ES that is added after all modifiers. ES increases from tree does not affect it. 1000 base mana with 200% increase would give you 3000*25%=750 total ES added. It is not flat ES and it does not work as Shade Form from Trickster.

"

dudiobugtron a écrit :

It doesn't work like that. Increased modifiers from mana and ES add together on that converted part. (Like how 'added fire damage' works.)

If you have 200% increased mana and 200% increased ES, and 1000 base mana, you will get 250 extra base ES, which will be increased by your mana and ES modifiers.

(1000 * 0.25) * (1 + 2.00 + 2.00) = 250 * 5 = 1250 total increased ES from that node.

That is however not how it works with the Guardian. And also not how it works with Discipline.

For Discipline Increased Aura efficiency and Increased ES stack multiplicatively. But to be fair I don't actually think that this is the strong part of this node. This 4 Ascendancy nodes basically allow you to invest nothing into mana and permanently cast even very costly skills. So while the Hierophant doesn't provide strong offensive parts he basically trivializes mana (at least they ensured that spells are not free by putting the mini MoM in there :P).

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gathor a écrit :

"

dudiobugtron a écrit :

It doesn't work like that. Increased modifiers from mana and ES add together on that converted part. (Like how 'added fire damage' works.)

If you have 200% increased mana and 200% increased ES, and 1000 base mana, you will get 250 extra base ES, which will be increased by your mana and ES modifiers.

(1000 * 0.25) * (1 + 2.00 + 2.00) = 250 * 5 = 1250 total increased ES from that node.

I don't think so.

It is Extra ES that is added after all modifiers. ES increases from tree does not affect it. 1000 base mana with 200% increase would give you 3000*25%=750 total ES added. It is not flat ES and it does not work as Shade Form from Trickster.

Carefully look a the wording:
- Hierophant: gain 25% of maximum mana as extra maximum energy shield
(not scaleable with %ES nodes, applies after all increased modifiers and more modifiers - is only added on top of your scaleable ES pool as a bonus)
- Guardian: grants maximum energy shield equal to 15% of your reserved mana
(sacleable with %mana and %ES modifer, also with more modifiers - counts to your general flat ES pool

It is a shame that Hierophant gets such a weak bones compared to Guardian :-(

"

Wiesl_1404 a écrit :

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gathor a écrit :

"

dudiobugtron a écrit :

It doesn't work like that. Increased modifiers from mana and ES add together on that converted part. (Like how 'added fire damage' works.)

If you have 200% increased mana and 200% increased ES, and 1000 base mana, you will get 250 extra base ES, which will be increased by your mana and ES modifiers.

(1000 * 0.25) * (1 + 2.00 + 2.00) = 250 * 5 = 1250 total increased ES from that node.

I don't think so.

It is Extra ES that is added after all modifiers. ES increases from tree does not affect it. 1000 base mana with 200% increase would give you 3000*25%=750 total ES added. It is not flat ES and it does not work as Shade Form from Trickster.

Carefully look a the wording:
- Hierophant: gain 25% of maximum mana as extra maximum energy shield
(not scaleable with %ES nodes, applies after all increased modifiers and more modifiers - is only added on top of your scaleable ES pool as a bonus)
- Guardian: grants maximum energy shield equal to 15% of your reserved mana
(sacleable with %mana and %ES modifer, also with more modifiers - counts to your general flat ES pool

It is a shame that Hierophant gets such a weak bones compared to Guardian :-(

Extra DOES scale though. There are multiple parts where we get Extra Chaos or Elemental Damage, iE Force Shaper. This extra damage does however scale with anything you have. Added Fire Damage uses the same wording, however the wand passivs that add physical damage as additional elemental damage use a different wording, but they work the same. Also Discipline just adds ES, not maximum ES so it has another different wording.

That is what I said mate, Extra ES added after all modifiers.
Also it may seem weak if you compare it to Guardian but with Hierophant you will have hefty life pool, huge mana and at least 2k ES on top of that. Not that bad, extra defence layer.

Edit:
Emphasy - yeah the various wordings seem pretty confusing hence best way to be sure is to see for yourself...

As said in this thread by other people it won't work like that.

(Base Mana * 0.25) * (1.0 + increased_mana + increased_ES) = gained_ES

It's a common misconception.

Anyway I feel like it's nothing broken when compared to other 4 pointers out there since I don't think much people will still go Hierophant since it doesn't offer the amount of power some classes offer.

That being said I look forward to trying the new Hierophant and maybe even trying some stuff with Corrupted Energy jewel to split the incoming damage to 3 pools (life/es/mana).

Tried Corrupted Energy last league with and without MoM. It is a very cool mechanic but since it only works for physical damage it is inconsistant.

VS physical damage you feel nearly immune except against super heavy hits
VS elemental damage only MoM kicks in which isn't that great

The problem:
a high ES pool has the same effectivness as such a concept and it is more efficient and easier to do on top of it. You don't have to watch your 3 pools and find ways to sustain them seperatly form each other.

my conclusion from this experiment:
As long as ES is more efficient as hybrid + MoM while beeing cheaper to build at the same time there is no point in doing it.