Fix bloodlust support gem for gladiator class

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LanPirot a écrit :

Sorry, I disagree completely. Its not a form of "encourage", it feels like a form of unneeded punishment. Thre are other ways to make sure, it becomes not to op. And from my point of view, have you written from perspective of a player who gained the luxurity of high level (67!) unique item and take the oppurtinity of this build. This is quite different, if you want to start from the scratch with an "encouraged" (gladiator class, bleeding skill line) playstyle in mind. Only! your item had you allowed to have a standard-main-clearing skill *and* an effective boss-killer-skill setup too. Please dont forget, if you aim for the gladiator class, then you have only 5-6 link, because of the dual-wield / one hand weapon setup of this class.

True, I used it in a build with a bleed-on-hit weapon, that certainly made things a bit nicer...



...however, that build is actually a remake of the first build I made in Talisman (which was pure self-found, no less), which used used no such weapon, and instead utilized a puncture gem to cause bleeding. While I couldn't have one less active gem somewhere in my setup or cause bleeding on everything my ice crash touched (which only really means anything against enemies i followup with viperstrike against anyway), it still performed its role very well; i took one quick swipe at the enemy with puncture, then beat the hell out of them with my bloodlust-viperstrike for a few seconds before refreshing the bleed (and since my puncture was also linked to my flicker-fortify setup, it gave me a way to refresh my fortify at the same time). The only real difference in the method is the skill i used to cause bleeding on bosses and the fact that i didn't need to haul an extra gem along.


As for only having one 5/6L? Big deal. I've never felt any need for anything beyond a 4L for clearing for anything besides custom traps and totems (the ones using the trap/spell totem/ranged attack totem supports), a 5/6L on a clearing skill is simply a luxury in most cases.

The whole point of Gladiator having a Bleed theme, as opposed to any other class, is that no one else is in a position to use the current version of Bloodlust better. One Handed Weapons means blocking (already a strong Gladiator theme), blocking means Riposte (and maybe Reckoning) triggers. Note that nothing Gladiator says "increased Damage with Bleed" or "increased Damage Over Time," it's all worded so your main skill can have Bloodlust support and still receive pretty big bonuses from Gratuitous Violence and Blood in the Eyes, using melee trigger skills to apply Bleed.

Then on top of it all, they added a corpse explosion effect so even if you only Bleed 1 enemy in a pack, it still helps you clear the whole pack faster.

So basically the entire freaking Ascendancy was designed to suit Bloodlust with its current drawback, and you guys are all like "remove Bloodlust drawback." Someone at GGG is facepalming right now.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

The whole point of Gladiator having a Bleed theme, as opposed to any other class, is that no one else is in a position to use the current version of Bloodlust better. One Handed Weapons means blocking (already a strong Gladiator theme), blocking means Riposte (and maybe Reckoning) triggers. Note that nothing Gladiator says "increased Damage with Bleed" or "increased Damage Over Time," it's all worded so your main skill can have Bloodlust support and still receive pretty big bonuses from Gratuitous Violence and Blood in the Eyes, using melee trigger skills to apply Bleed.

So basically the entire freaking Ascendancy was designed to suit Bloodlust with its current drawback, and you guys are all like "remove Bloodlust drawback." Someone at GGG is facepalming right now.

So because people can use trigger gems (which are completely unreliable) to cause bleed because they aren't supported with bloodlust, that means the gem as a whole isn't completely trash?

No the gem in its current form literally is trash. Its unreliable and not interesting to build around, even with that attempt of a class its not good enough.


For once in your life think of the game as a player instead of your view from the high "i think like a dev" pedestal you think your entitled to be in.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

The whole point of Gladiator having a Bleed theme, as opposed to any other class, is that no one else is in a position to use the current version of Bloodlust better. One Handed Weapons means blocking (already a strong Gladiator theme), blocking means Riposte (and maybe Reckoning) triggers. Note that nothing Gladiator says "increased Damage with Bleed" or "increased Damage Over Time," it's all worded so your main skill can have Bloodlust support and still receive pretty big bonuses from Gratuitous Violence and Blood in the Eyes, using melee trigger skills to apply Bleed.

Then on top of it all, they added a corpse explosion effect so even if you only Bleed 1 enemy in a pack, it still helps you clear the whole pack faster.

So basically the entire freaking Ascendancy was designed to suit Bloodlust with its current drawback, and you guys are all like "remove Bloodlust drawback." Someone at GGG is facepalming right now.

This.

Removing the draw back would be another more melee damage multiplier.
Melee Damage
Melee Damage on Full Life
Bloodlust

Hey, while we are at it remove the "on Full Life" for Melee Damage on Full Life. I don't want to play strategically, I want to just spam all the high multipliers without thinking.

Ironically,the weapon best able to make use of gladiator bleed path is disfavour, which I feel is stupid, because then half your points are wasted on the minor nodes,and while you can get the free frenzy generation, you can't get endurance charges.

More on topic, bloodlust in its current state is only good for boss killing, and even then only if the boss is a high hp one like atziri or one of the act 4 bosses in maps. In any other case it's just a straight up reduction in clear speed.

Disfavor isn't the optimum usage, because corpse explosions. It's more important to use Bloodlust as a Gladiator than it is to maximize Bleed chance, because killing even one enemy in a pack will result in the death of the entire pack.

Now, if this thread's title was "fix Bloodlust support so someone other than Gladiator could actually use it," then okay, it'll be hard for any non-Gladiator to use Bloodlust effectively, and there actually is a point there.

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goetzjam a écrit :

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

The whole point of Gladiator having a Bleed theme, as opposed to any other class, is that no one else is in a position to use the current version of Bloodlust better. One Handed Weapons means blocking (already a strong Gladiator theme), blocking means Riposte (and maybe Reckoning) triggers. Note that nothing Gladiator says "increased Damage with Bleed" or "increased Damage Over Time," it's all worded so your main skill can have Bloodlust support and still receive pretty big bonuses from Gratuitous Violence and Blood in the Eyes, using melee trigger skills to apply Bleed.

So basically the entire freaking Ascendancy was designed to suit Bloodlust with its current drawback, and you guys are all like "remove Bloodlust drawback." Someone at GGG is facepalming right now.

So because people can use trigger gems (which are completely unreliable) to cause bleed because they aren't supported with bloodlust, that means the gem as a whole isn't completely trash?

No the gem in its current form literally is trash. Its unreliable and not interesting to build around, even with that attempt of a class its not good enough.


For once in your life think of the game as a player instead of your view from the high "i think like a dev" pedestal you think your entitled to be in.

Well if we look at the support on its own it is incredible strong, there aren't many gems providing such a high multiplier. And actually I think the gem is just fine, yes it forces another skill use but with the power increase on melee splash it is so easy to just puncture a lot of enemies.

However if we look at the gem from a melee centered perspective it is understandable that there is a high demand for another multiplier (the same technically goes for ranged attacks, which has an even greater lack of Multipliers). I'm not sure Bloodlust has to be that gem that provides this, because it is already there and you can use it. Similar to slower projectiles it is annoying to use but provides great power. Having a Bleed Support gem though would likely help a bit since it would give you greater choice of how to apply your bleed (Piercing Lightning Strike, Earthquake, GMP Spectral Throw etc.).

I feel that a new support should be used instead of changing Bloodlust, since Bloodlust is already there. It wouldnt increase the powerlevel of Melees, because you can already use it. It would free up some gems, but that is not such a great benefit. A new support however would likely actually make Melee a bit better since you could use it and Bloodlust.

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Emphasy a écrit :

Having a Bleed Support gem though would likely help a bit since it would give you greater choice of how to apply your bleed (Piercing Lightning Strike, Earthquake, GMP Spectral Throw etc.).

I don't think I'd want a bleed support, unless it could only cause bleed on melee damage (actually, i outright KNOW i wouldn't want it without that condition)... the last thing we need is split arrow/Tshots that cause bleeding without the opportunity cost of a Tora bow. It'd just wind up as yet another mechanic ranged can use better than melee (kinda like the new Maim mechanic on that 4-node notable that any melee gladiator with a brain will ignore)


Like I said earlier, I'd rather address this through affixes and passives... change Vagan's 'hits cause bleeding' prefix to a suffix so that it can actually be used without such a high cost to weapon damage. Even change it to some chance to bleed instead of a guarantee if necessary (they could even make it a new random affix for melee weapons, with various tiers for different chances to cause bleeding). That, and/or increase the bleed chances in the passive tree (and on Maraketh thrusting swords), cuz 8% or whatever is way too unreliable.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

So basically the entire freaking Ascendancy was designed to suit Bloodlust with its current drawback, and you guys are all like "remove Bloodlust drawback." Someone at GGG is facepalming right now.

Thanks for reading the entry post so carefully.

I have never ask for a complete remove, but for a better re-design. I have try to explained that (the recently again upraded) "chance to bleeding" for a "melee-bleed build" isnt that helpful, if you want to use the bloodlust gem. I have try to explained in addition, that I dont like the bloodlust design, to forces you to use another "support skill" even if I specc in the specialized gladiator class. And still, even then, some minor restrictions for that specialized the gladiator class would be fine.

Its not like, that I have ask for the gladiator class something like: I want to play with - lets say - 3 totems and on top of that I would like to do damage trough selfcasting spells or attacks...

So a new support then?

Crimson Arts
Chance to cause bleeding with supported melee attack is lucky. +x% increased physical damage against bleeding enemies.


Question: Do bleeding chances add up to one single chance or get rolled separately on their own? If it's the former, an increase in bleeding chance may be more effective than a lucky on all the low chance rolls.

Edit: Or better idea. Gain a percentage of the bleeding damage as additional melee damage. So with the next bleed you cause, you increase the bleeding damage and thus the damage bonus. Which means the longer you fight against an enemy and sustain continuous bleeds, the higher the damage climbs. I think that would actually be interesting.