Fix bloodlust support gem for gladiator class

Please fix the design of the bloodlust support gem for the gladiator.

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Bloodlust

One skill line of the gladiator class encourage you to use "bleeding". Therefore you get an increased damage bonus and increased proc chance of the bleeding effect. So what you want is, that your main skill proc the bleeding effect and you get the damage boost.

The trouble is, to really shine as a melee "bleeding" build, you want that bloodlust support on your main skill too. But that means, you cant no longer proc the bleeding effect, the gladiator reward of "more bleeing chance" is wasted on your main skill (like the skllipoints with same effects on the skilltree). So you need another skill just to proc the bleeding effect. Since you build around this bleeding effect and have spend your precious ascendancy points only for that, its important to get that effect reliable. Thats why you will choose a weapon with bleeding effect or the puncture skill just for proc that bleeding effect. In the end you get on your secondary "bleeding" skill a 100 % proc chance just for that. So the increased bleeding chance of your gladiator reward is wasted completly.

Of course you can get rid of this "bloodlust" support gem and get the proc chance on your main skill again ( and so the damage boost too). The point is, the bloodlust gem offers, unlike the gladiator rewards, not only *increased* damage, but *more* damage. And giving that away, means ironically, you choose a "bleeding" centerd ascendancy build & class, but have to give away the best support gem for that.

But the best solution for a "melee bleeding build" for maximum ascendancy rewards seems to be: just stick with the "two-skill" setup, aviod the "bleeding skill line" of the gladiator class and get a general! damage/ defence boost from another ascendancy class / skill line. - - Whats a bit weird desgin of the "bloodlust gem" / "gladiator bleeding skill line" maybe...

So therefore I ask for a change of the bloodlust gem. I can understand that you dont want that the bloodlust gem get used with "100 % bleeding setups" without additional efforts. But investing in your whole ascendancy points seems a bit like an effort ?? So please change that in some ways. Maybe from "cannot cause bleeding" to something like : "dont proc on puncture and on weapons with bleeding effect" or as an reward of the gladiator bleeding skill line, maybe like : "bloodlust allows now to proc bleeding. 10 % less effect of bloodlust, if used together with bleeding skill or bleeding weapon"

Thanks for reading this wall of text :-).

The bloodlust gem always seemed kind of odd to me.

While yes, it has a gimmicky niche use in Atziri's Disfavour builds (leap slam to apply bleed, then do your main skill), it's not worth getting rid of another support.

I think the skill just needs a redesign. The concept of more damage on bleeding enemies should be kept, but the other part needs to be changed.

It is rather counter intuitive. Instead of using all the bleed chance nodes and items, you are basically stuck applying a bleed with puncture and then use bloodlust with whatever main attack skills you actually want to use.

Maybe reduce the more damage from bloodlust and instead of the 'cannot bleed' modifier add a less bleeding damage/duration/chance. Then you'd actually get some synergy with the skill nodes and items. Much similar to the elemental and chaos damage gems.

I say fix it for all reasons not just that class.

They shouldn't restrict it to not applying bleed, other things like mentioned above are far more interesting things. I think the gem might be insane with some builds if they build around it with no bleeding on hit restriction but it will help melee become more powerful.

Should be like Hypothermia, more dmg on bleeding enemmy. Obviously the values should be lowered.

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IceDeal a écrit :

Should be like Hypothermia, more dmg on bleeding enemmy. Obviously the values should be lowered.

Why lower the values that much, people still have to invest into bleed chance.

I prefer it the way it is. It encourages builds to use more than 1 attack skill, one way or another. I've used the gem myself to great effect on my eponymous character, using Rigwald's on a clearing skill (ice crash) to apply bleed and having bloodlust linked to my bosskiller (viperstrike).

It's a lot like Flamesurge not being able to ignite or HoT not being able to shock, it's to keep them from being mindlessly amplified when they're supposed to be conditional.


That being said, it would be nice if bleed was easier to apply. Gladiator's notable being buffed up to 25% is nice, but unless there's similar buffs to the nodes in the passive tree, that's not reliable enough for when you need it, causing players to either use puncture or using weapons with Bleed on Hit (like Rigwalds or Jack or AD) instead.

One indirect buff I'd like to see to Bloodlust is the Bleed on Hit affix Vagan can add to weapons being changed to a suffix, instead of a prefix (and allowing it on all melee weapon types, not just the sharp/edged ones... internal bleeding hurts too, you know). As a prefix, it conflicts heavily with the various physical damage prefixes, while as a suffix it only conflicts with crit and attack speed (and stun, i guess), and in conflicting with crit instead of base damage it could help even the score between crit and non-crit for a change. Perhaps it might need to be changed to 'xx% chance to bleed' then instead of being guaranteed, but it'd still be a change for the better.

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IceDeal a écrit :

Should be like Hypothermia, more dmg on bleeding enemmy. Obviously the values should be lowered.

no, it absolutely shouldn't, that would be the single dumbest thing they could possibly do for balance; that would take away any real reason to use it as a melee (at its current values it's worth going out of your way to use, while at hypothermia levels it's not really worth it) while making it an extremely useful tool for bows, which already use bleed much much much (much*100) better than melees for damage.

Bloodlust was basically made because melees get screwed over heavily by bleed mechanics. They don't kite enemies around into moving for the massive bonus damage like bows do, and they don't get to double-dip on ridiculously unfair scaling mechs like trap and projectile damage like bows do. As a result, melee bleed is borderline irrelevant for its DoT, so Bloodlust was created as a way to make bleed meaningful for melees too. Taking away the 'melee' portion would destroy any and all reason for the gem being made in the first place.

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Shppy a écrit :

I prefer it the way it is. It encourages builds to use more than 1 attack skill, one way or another. I've used the gem myself to great effect on my eponymous character, using Rigwald's on a clearing skill (ice crash) to apply bleed and having bloodlust linked to my bosskiller (viperstrike).

It's a lot like Flamesurge not being able to ignite or HoT not being able to shock, it's to keep them from being mindlessly amplified when they're supposed to be conditional.


That being said, it would be nice if bleed was easier to apply. Gladiator's notable being buffed up to 25% is nice, but unless there's similar buffs to the nodes in the passive tree, that's not reliable enough for when you need it, causing players to either use puncture or using weapons with Bleed on Hit (like Rigwalds or Jack or AD) instead.

One indirect buff I'd like to see to Bloodlust is the Bleed on Hit affix Vagan can add to weapons being changed to a suffix, instead of a prefix. As a prefix, it conflicts heavily with the various physical damage prefixes, while as a suffix it only conflicts with crit and attack speed (and stun, i guess), and in conflicting with crit instead of base damage it could help even the score between crit and non-crit for a change.

Yes this makes sense.

I guess from the perspective now its simply just a gimmicky gem for certain uniques, rather then a nice gem to build around. Changing either the application methods of bleed or the effect of the gem will do the same thing, encourage players to actually use it.

However with all the more gem modifiers being added to spells, I think melee having another more multiplier if they do apply the condition is fine, I personally rather see it not restrict the weapon being used and make applying bleeds something easier to get from crafting like you say or on the tree. It also helps the whole melee vs ranged and crit vs non crit arguments, especially for melee, which needs improvements anyway, I see this as a way to knock out many birds with 1 stone.

Personally think leaving it to using more then 1 attack skill is just meh because it overall encourages mashing of buttons similar to how things in D3 work where you just use 1 ability to benefit another ability and there isn't a real strategic method of doing it, just almost MMO like, which I don't like.

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Mythabril a écrit :

Maybe reduce the more damage from bloodlust and instead of the 'cannot bleed' modifier add a less bleeding damage/duration/chance. Then you'd actually get some synergy with the skill nodes and items. Much similar to the elemental and chaos damage gems.

I like this idea too.

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Shppy a écrit :

I prefer it the way it is. It encourages builds to use more than 1 attack skill, one way or another. I've used the gem myself to great effect on my eponymous character, using Rigwald's on a clearing skill (ice crash) to apply bleed and having bloodlust linked to my bosskiller (viperstrike).

Sorry, I disagree completely. Its not a form of "encourage", it feels like a form of unneeded punishment. Thre are other ways to make sure, it becomes not to op. And from my point of view, have you written from perspective of a player who gained the luxurity of high level (67!) unique item and take the oppurtinity of this build. This is quite different, if you want to start from the scratch with an "encouraged" (gladiator class, bleeding skill line) playstyle in mind. Only! your item had you allowed to have a standard-main-clearing skill *and* an effective boss-killer-skill setup too. Please dont forget, if you aim for the gladiator class, then you have only 5-6 link, because of the dual-wield / one hand weapon setup of this class.

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Shppy a écrit :

Bloodlust was basically made because melees get screwed over heavily by bleed mechanics. They don't kite enemies around into moving for the massive bonus damage like bows do, and they don't get to double-dip on ridiculously unfair scaling mechs like trap and projectile damage like bows do. As a result, melee bleed is borderline irrelevant for its DoT, so Bloodlust was created as a way to make bleed meaningful for melees too. Taking away the 'melee' portion would destroy any and all reason for the gem being made in the first place.

On the other hand, here I agree completely with you. I dont want remove the "melee" part, because of this.