[Balancing] Staves VS 1-handed+shield at the look of a spellcaster

I would like to adress some balancing issues between spellcasters while wielding a 2-handed staff or using a wand + shield combo.
I know, that this issue has already been ajusted by the DEV's in the past, but in my opinion the overall balance isn't there where it should be.


For this, i'd like to make a list of pro's and con's:

2-handed staff:
pro:
- additional 6 link possibility
- can support a 6 link with +2 to elemental and +1 to all gems

contra
- can't use a shield
- very poor defensive abilitys dispite low implicit block chance

1-handed scepter/wand + shield
pro:
- more spell damage possible than wielding a staff
- much more critical strike chance for spells possible than wielding a staff
- possibility go for high block/spell block
- more resists/armor/evasion and much more life/ES possible than wielding a staff
- ES shields can roll mana regen, which is crucial for most spell caster builds
- possibilty of using nice unique shields to augment an interesting build
- can have +2 to elemental modifiers in both slots for utility gems like AA or curses

contra
- no extra 6 link which can be augmented by +2/+1 modifiers
- reduced runspeed modifier because of the shield


So let us look at the various build concepts for casters for survivability:
If you would like to go ES, you better take a shield and a wand/scepter, because of the huge ES value you would lose, while wielding a staff, also your ofense power is greater when you go for crit (ES nodes and crit nodes are mostly in the same area).

If you like to go for a life build, you better also go better for a wand/scepter shield combo, because you get more life/armor/evasion and more DPS due to crit - also the block nodes are mostly near in the "efficient life-area" of the passive tree.


Now, let us look on the damage typs which we can use as a caster

Cold-Spells are, currently, only vaible with crit --> so 1-handed + shield is preferable here over a Staff build even then when you are trying to ignore the defense capabilties, the staff is inferior. When we look at unique options, <Taryns Shiver>: It has it's use in party-builds like self casting Cold Snap with <Romiras ring>, but despite this niche build it will be allways be inferior.

Lightning spells are, currently, mostly vaible in the form of newly buffed Arc and in the form of discharge or even more due to Cast on Crit builds, which trigger the lighting spell through an attack rapidly or using the unique Mjölner. Lightning spells have a low base crit chance, so crit isn't the argument here (excluding lightning-discharge). But, a shield + 1 wand, as always it seems, provides more benefit to all of these builds. There is currently no unique 2-handed lightning staff in the game, but as we can say now, a perfectly rolled rare staff will always be inferior to a 1-handed shield combo in every lightning build. 6-linking and selfcasting a lightning spell is, currently, underwhelming, which is another counter argument to staves (only totems mabye, but when you use totems you don't need a staff at all - one 6 link is more than sufficiant)

As we come to fire spells, which are very popular at the moment such as flameblast and detonate dead (is currently used as a "fire spell" kind of) - also there are a few fireball builds out there which are using <Three Dragons> unique. The problems with fire spells is mostly reflect, because of there huge damage potential through crit. In fact, the high damage potential allows you to neglect crit, if you want completely and go for burn damage instead. Burn damage builds don't use a second 6-link at all, they try to create single a huge hit, which will result in a huge proliferating burn. To mitigate the probably reflected damage, they need very high defensive stats, which can be achieved easier via a 1-handed + shield combo. Also, they normaly dont have the abiltiy to leech, because they do one big hit and "wait" for the enemy to die - so the bigger the damage buffer, the better for them. They often use arctic armor, so mana regen is crucial - luckly a shield can roll mana regen and a wand/sceptere can too. When we plan out an EB/MoM build, we would also like to use a shield, because it can provide as more flat mana.
When we look at the famous <Searing Touch>, which provides huge benefits to non crit, burn builds, such as burning discharge or flameblast, it seems that it could be better. The fact is, in most cases, 1-handed+schield is also better here because of higher survivability resulting in a higher and much more confidant clear speed over all. <Searing Touch> is OP for leveling or for 2nd weapon slot swich hybrid builds, but not for a burn build in general (in the past, in fact, this was true build since the changes to buring damage is effected by fire damage as will it isn't anymore). <Three Dragons> Fireball benefits form crit, so a staff isn't optimal.


The passive tree for staffs in general:
There is acutally one great cluster for spell casing staff users on the top of the tree - Serpant Stance, which provides nice crit chance and crit multiplier while wielding a staff. Also there are some minor staff block nodes and a bigger one at the templar side of the tree, which are very inefficiant and hard to reach most time for casters. Serpant Stance is great, but a little bit inefficiant to get for a crit based caster. All other good crit nodes, are on the highway a crit caster would take on the tree (shadow and wich starting area, templar starting area and nodes near "Purity of Flesh" are way more efficiant to get) If you desperatly seek for crit multi, get to shadow or templer before get serpent stance for more efficiany and/or get some on gear or through the crit multi gem.




So in conclusion, staves are a underwhelming tool for 95% of all spell casters, despite the buff recieved at the end of open beta.
In my opinion, a staff should have some kind of significant higher offensive benifit (or any kind of other benefit you can come up) in regard to 1-handed + shield. Despite the additional 6link capabilty and the +1/+2 modifiers, 1-handed + shield will have in 98% higher dps or higher clear speed. Is this really intended to be? --> i don't think so :)

I would like to see some improvements in the next 4-mounth leage for caters and especially for self casting casters. Feel free to discuss and give feedback.


EDIT: 22.05.2014 - wrongly mixed up the fact about run speed modifier above - fixed it

Just use a staff with BoR, bam +15% block chance!



Edit :

My suggestion would be.

A) improve the power of staff block% nodes

B) give staves a 100% spell block rate (not that they block spells 100%, but that 100% of the block rate is also effective against spells)

Since they cannot get extreem high block rate % atm this could function and give another layer of defenses that's highly desired in the game. While a 1h+shield base needs to make sacrifices in items to get benefit from it, a 2h staff user would need to sacrifice passive points for this benefit. (as in staff block nodes)

Just a quick thought, might be flawed do.

"

Boem a écrit :

Just use a staff with BoR, bam +15% block chance!

Spoiler

j/k :'), good post sir. Fair point also

Thanks for the info, but when you actually read my post and the title, you will notice, that i was talking for spell casters and not melee or phyiscal attack based characters :)

BoR is a nice tool for physical based characters, but it provides no actuall benefit for casters despite life/armor/evasion, from wich you can get more from a helm/chest combo - for CI/ES characters it is also subotimal or near useless :)

Edit:
Thank you for you other opinions and sugestions

Mark got to the thread before I did D:

But also, Staves do have the HUGE benefit of being able to +3 gems... which can become very powerful with Empower/Enhance, and certain spells... as is evidenced by many Trapper/Poison Arrow builds, where it is mainly levels that scale damage. Also, if i am not mistaken, there are a few -very- powerful Crit Multiplier and Crit Chance 2 Handed Nodes in the Templar Area of the Passive Tree.

Edit:
Serpent Stance, Pure Brutality, Whirling Barrier, and Blunt Trauma could be interesting.

"

BisuProbe a écrit :

"

Midnightgem a écrit :

Mark got to the thread before I did D:

But also, Staves do have the HUGE benefit of being able to +3 gems... which can become very powerful with Empower/Enhance, and certain spells... as is evidenced by many Trapper/Poison Arrow builds, where it is mainly levels that scale damage.

If u are talking about the recent BOTW, those use Bows, not staves.
and do give me a build that reach endgame lvl90+ that utilise A yellow STAFF with +gem other than the usual searing touch or taryn...basically none especially HC

Their rarity is more than likely the cause of this. The bows only need +3, staves need to be almost perfect.

Edit. Pretty certain the extra spell dmg and even critical chance from a shield doesn't beat a +3.

"

SL4Y3R a écrit :

"

BisuProbe a écrit :

"

Midnightgem a écrit :

Mark got to the thread before I did D:

But also, Staves do have the HUGE benefit of being able to +3 gems... which can become very powerful with Empower/Enhance, and certain spells... as is evidenced by many Trapper/Poison Arrow builds, where it is mainly levels that scale damage.

If u are talking about the recent BOTW, those use Bows, not staves.
and do give me a build that reach endgame lvl90+ that utilise A yellow STAFF with +gem other than the usual searing touch or taryn...basically none especially HC

Their rarity is more than likely the cause of this. The bows only need +3, staves need to be almost perfect.

Edit. Pretty certain the extra spell dmg and even critical chance from a shield doesn't beat a +3.

If perfect weapons are really powerful, players will craft them using Eternal orbs. Look at this dagger:

What are the chances to drop the same? Practically ZERO! But still, there are a bulk of such daggers. But there are NO such caster staves at all. Why? Because they absolutely arent worth efforts.

[edit: double post on token re-submission: sorry ^^ my actual post is on the next page now >>]