Charged dash damage formulas?

I'm trying to theory craft a Charged Dash build for Delve but it's such a convoluted skill and neither the in-game tooltip or the wiki provides actual information to plan.

I'm hesitating between going Dual Wield with tons of attack speed but no movement speed to maximise the stages for that 75% bonus damage (10 stages at 75% bonus would mean a final wave of close to 1000%? Is that right?) or going 2handed with lots of movement speed for larger per-hit damage but no big final wave.

Except even in POB I can't figure out how many stages I'm getting since your attack speed and movement speed don't really change much (while it should per the skill wording).

The damage in POB is also pretty hard to evaluate. Is this the damage of 1 stage? The damage of channelling when at max stages? It's definitely not the damage of releasing at the end since it doesn't change with movement speed (which reduces your total maximum stages).

So does anyone know what the formula for number of stages and maximum total stages are based on attack speed and movement speed? Has anyone done "conclusive" research on what's best, either fast attack no movement or fast movement normal attack? I think the clear will be good enough but I'm worried about the single target damage.

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Namcap a écrit :

Has anyone done "conclusive" research on what's best, either fast attack no movement or fast movement normal attack?

yes

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2160034/page/2#p15600681

no matter what you do, theoretical DPS is 184.2% of your weapon damage (Mark_GGG was clever in assigning bonuses and penalties that way)

only real exceptions are if you do channel-release-channel-release and have bad timing, thereby dropping below 184.2% (you want to release right after a channeling pulse goes out, so as not to "waste" any built-up next-pulses), or if you want to charge up for one strong hit before a boss spawns (aka Izaro)

if you want to cheese against Izaro you MUST build slow movement speed like old 99% reduced movespeed Cyclone builds

low movespeed is also good for other cases of "one strong hit" but there have been tests showing it doesn't apply to Ailment DOTs, so I can't really imagine what else you would want "one strong hit" for (perma-freezing comes to mind, except you would have to wait for the stages to build up thereby wasting the freeze time in theory).

however in all other cases you can do whatever you want and DPS will be the same.

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Namcap a écrit :

I'm hesitating between going Dual Wield with tons of attack speed but no movement speed to maximise the stages for that 75% bonus damage (10 stages at 75% bonus would mean a final wave of close to 1000%? Is that right?) or going 2handed with lots of movement speed for larger per-hit damage but no big final wave.

sure, 850% of damage in one hit is nice on paper, but remember that you have to take the time to build up those stages, just like Flameblast

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adghar a écrit :

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Namcap a écrit :

I'm hesitating between going Dual Wield with tons of attack speed but no movement speed to maximise the stages for that 75% bonus damage (10 stages at 75% bonus would mean a final wave of close to 1000%? Is that right?) or going 2handed with lots of movement speed for larger per-hit damage but no big final wave.

sure, 850% of damage in one hit is nice on paper, but remember that you have to take the time to build up those stages, just like Flameblast

Which is why I want to know the formulas to calculate stages/pulses and maximum distance. This is one of the few skills where minmaxing can make a big difference. For example, in my POB I have 5.97 attack rate. Are stages based on attack rate? If so, does hitting 6.0 take me to the next breakpoint and have 1 more stage or is the 60% more attack speed factored in and then 5.97 and 6.0 are the same?

Honestly I LOVE the "hit once hit hard" approach. And for single target damage I definitely want to maximise it and not only in those cheese fights where you can prep.

As for the thread you linked, I read it but it's not easy to follow since you start by making a point, argue about it, then determine you were wrong but people continue to argue.

Yes theoretical dps is 184% if you zipzap perfectly but that doesn't account for the final hit which is where I want to focus.

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Namcap a écrit :

Yes theoretical dps is 184% if you zipzap perfectly but that doesn't account for the final hit which is where I want to focus.

184% does include the final hit. here's the breakdown:

While building up to final hit, your pulses deal 92.1% * 1.6 / 2 DPS or 73.68% weapon DPS. every second you build up stages based on your APS for 92.1% * 75% * 1.6 = 110.52% weapon DPS "Saved Up" for the final hit, per second. When you add those two figures together you get a total of 73.68% + 110.52% = 184.20%

to focus on final hit it will just be 92.1% * 75% * the number of stages you can reach which i will admit will probably take more testing and/or theorycrafting to determine the exact impact of Movement Speed; I don't know the area units per second for movespeed % translation ratio nor do I know the area units for max Charged Dash distance

so to summarize it should look like...


(92.1% * 75% * 1.6 * APS) * (seconds per full distance)

and to figure seconds per full distance I would guess it is something like (base seconds taken to reach max distance at 0% movespeed) / (1 + x% increased movement speed)

so if my understanding of movement speed and max distance is correct we just need rigorous testing to find one constant: base seconds taken to reach max distance at 0% movespeed and then i can provide your magic formula

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adghar a écrit :

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Namcap a écrit :

Yes theoretical dps is 184% if you zipzap perfectly but that doesn't account for the final hit which is where I want to focus.

184% does include the final hit. here's the breakdown:

While building up to final hit, your pulses deal 92.1% * 1.6 / 2 DPS or 73.68% weapon DPS. every second you build up stages based on your APS for 92.1% * 75% * 1.6 = 110.52% weapon DPS "Saved Up" for the final hit, per second. When you add those two figures together you get a total of 73.68% + 110.52% = 184.20%

to focus on final hit it will just be 92.1% * 75% * the number of stages you can reach which i will admit will probably take more testing and/or theorycrafting to determine the exact impact of Movement Speed; I don't know the area units per second for movespeed % translation ratio nor do I know the area units for max Charged Dash distance

But this guy posted the below which suggest the 150% more damage applies to the final hit while it is not factored in your formula above. This is part of the reason why I want to maximize stages for the release as it's a huge more multiplier.

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lolPLSiGOTthis a écrit :

Secondly, the line "Deals 150% more Damage while Channelling if Mirage has finished moving" also applies to the release damage.
Tested using Decay Support. The modifier boosts decays, as such I got my trypanon and Warden's Brand rings so the downtime between pulses is like 3 seconds and had my friend walk in after a pulse and release on him. By checking HP loss we confirmed that the boost applies to the release.

Final question for now if you happen to know, since nothing else in the game can shotgun right now, is it possible that monsters would be hit by a pulse and therefore not take damage from the release (if you channelled through them for example) since it's part of the same attack? This would drastically reduce the damage so I hope not.

Well I suppose that does warrant additional testing for basic mechanics as the behaviour he claimed does not match my observations in Incursion League. Most likely the Decay effect is applied "while Channeling" but the hit is not. But I could be wrong. Can't test until at least 6.5 hours from now as I'm just being a shitball at work right now and I doubt it's a good idea to install POE on work computers

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Namcap a écrit :

Final question for now if you happen to know, since nothing else in the game can shotgun right now, is it possible that monsters would be hit by a pulse and therefore not take damage from the release (if you channelled through them for example) since it's part of the same attack? This would drastically reduce the damage so I hope not.

They can take damage from both channeling-pulse and final-release just fine, unless something is seriously wrong with my eyes in Incursion League

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adghar a écrit :

Can't test until at least 6.5 hours from now as I'm just being a shitball at work right now and I doubt it's a good idea to install POE on work computers

Yep it's why I'm trying to theory craft this build now instead of testing in game.

Thanks for the prior answers and help btw.

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Namcap a écrit :

Thanks for the prior answers and help btw.

No problem, having mained Charged Dash to level 92 in Incursion makes me think I have a good grasp of it, but people DEFINITELY are able to use stuff in this game without understanding how it really works, so I could be falling in the same trap.