Wand, Daggers, staves and Specters

I recently did a caster dagger and a range (?) wand attack build to try a couple of off builds that have some notoriety but aren't very popular. My feedback threads and comments as of late have revolved around solutions to make these builds easier for new players to figure out.

I was gonna post just on wands and daggers but specters/staves are in the same boat, they each have too many mods so it makes crafting them a nightmare.

These hybrid weapons have 16-18 prefixes and 20 suffixes while other weapons have 15 and 16-17.

Those extra affixes don't seem to make a big difference but every mace affix will help someone using a mace. While elemental damage won't scale huge on a physical damage build, it will still help. For a caster dagger users, rolling cruel IPD affix is completely uselsss and I can't tell you how many wands I've alched trying to get dual or triple elemental damage to look down at only caster mods.

I'm quickly finding that crafting these weapons is a completely waste of resources and just buying them is a better option, as usually the better ones are found through drops not crafting.

I suggest you either split them up into 2 classes, one caster only and other attack only or break them up how they currently sit.

I don't know much about staves and specters but I do know daggers and wands have 3 different classes of attack speed, 1.1, 1.3 and 1.5 (and some 1.4 daggers). Generally an attack based build is going to want the higher aps weapon, especially an elemental build also a caster build couldn't care less about weapon aps. I also know that you guys want many options open so if someone wanted to do an EK flicker strike build they could find the right weapon for it.

So I suggest this, have the slow version of each weapon as the caster only option. The middle aps version as the hybrid weapon, have the big affix pool that will allow for max spell damage and max IPD. Then leave the max aps versions to purely attack damage related things.

List them on the item data as caster/hybrid/attack, add some affixes so they are equal to the rest of the weapons (wouldn't make sense to go from too many affixes to too few) so people could take a certain one and craft it based on what their need is.

As it will have the same amount of affixes other weapons do it won't be easier to craft a perfect weapon for a certain build but neither will it be so difficult to get a weapon that only has mods you can use.

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Moosifer a écrit :

So I suggest this, have the slow version of each weapon as the caster only option. The middle aps version as the hybrid weapon, have the big affix pool that will allow for max spell damage and max IPD. Then leave the max aps versions to purely attack damage related things.

This looks like a good idea. I have some experience with wands and they are horrible for casters. They do not benefit from quality, the implicit mods are terrible, etc.

Comparing for example the 6th and 1st wands ordered by their level

driftwood wand -> 8 to 12% spell damage
sage wand -> 11 to 14% spell damage

Now what is the difference between two of those wands, both ilvl 30 ? Nothing. I doubt that would be true for any other weapon class; generally speaking wand itemization is weird early on. ( obviously this applies to casters only )

I recently did a caster dagger and a range (?) wand attack build to try a couple of off builds that have some notoriety but aren't very popular. My feedback threads and comments as of late have revolved around solutions to make these builds easier for new players to figure out.

I was gonna post just on wands and daggers but specters/staves are in the same boat, they each have too many mods so it makes crafting them a nightmare.

These hybrid weapons have 16-18 prefixes and 20 suffixes while other weapons have 15 and 16-17.

Those extra affixes don't seem to make a big difference but every mace affix will help someone using a mace. While elemental damage won't scale huge on a physical damage build, it will still help. For a caster dagger users, rolling cruel IPD affix is completely uselsss and I can't tell you how many wands I've alched trying to get dual or triple elemental damage to look down at only caster mods.

I'm quickly finding that crafting these weapons is a completely waste of resources and just buying them is a better option, as usually the better ones are found through drops not crafting.

I suggest you either split them up into 2 classes, one caster only and other attack only or break them up how they currently sit.

I don't know much about staves and specters but I do know daggers and wands have 3 different classes of attack speed, 1.1, 1.3 and 1.5 (and some 1.4 daggers). Generally an attack based build is going to want the higher aps weapon, especially an elemental build also a caster build couldn't care less about weapon aps. I also know that you guys want many options open so if someone wanted to do an EK flicker strike build they could find the right weapon for it.

So I suggest this, have the slow version of each weapon as the caster only option. The middle aps version as the hybrid weapon, have the big affix pool that will allow for max spell damage and max IPD. Then leave the max aps versions to purely attack damage related things.

List them on the item data as caster/hybrid/attack, add some affixes so they are equal to the rest of the weapons (wouldn't make sense to go from too many affixes to too few) so people could take a certain one and craft it based on what their need is.

As it will have the same amount of affixes other weapons do it won't be easier to craft a perfect weapon for a certain build but neither will it be so difficult to get a weapon that only has mods you can use.

You posted the OP again Moos.

When it comes to casting weapons & hybrids I also think there is room for improvement. As you have already stated a Driftwood isn't all that different to a sage & casters don't benefit whatsoever from quality on weapons making Whetstones almost redundant for a caster class. I kinda like the phys wand thing (but hope for more than 1 skill to use it) but I think there should be some caster specific weapons added at some point. With regards to Daggers, Sceptres & Staves, it's cool that they are a hybrid so you can do some casts & some attacks but it seems that unless you are super high level with godly gear your chara is just gonna be lacking in both aspects rather than strong because of both.

When it comes to crafting I am actually starting to consider that it is far too easy to craft endgame gear. I may make a separate thread about it but I think that considering people were acquiring 6L Vaal Regalia just a few weeks into the latest wipe there may be a possibility come OB people will craft godly gear too early and have nowhere to go after.

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lethal_papercut a écrit :

You posted the OP again Moos.

This is a forum bug.

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Moosifer a écrit :

So I suggest this, have the slow version of each weapon as the caster only option. The middle aps version as the hybrid weapon, have the big affix pool that will allow for max spell damage and max IPD. Then leave the max aps versions to purely attack damage related things.

The general theme of this idea I like a lot, but I'm not sure about dividing them into categories too distinctly. Perhaps instead of turning the high and low attack speed tier into pure attacker and caster options respectively, their chances to roll certain affixes should be played with.

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Iao a écrit :

The general theme of this idea I like a lot, but I'm not sure about dividing them into categories too distinctly. Perhaps instead of turning the high and low attack speed tier into pure attacker and caster options respectively, their chances to roll certain affixes should be played with.

Ya I don't think they would need a new list for each on the item data, just something to clarify these ones have caster only mods, these ones attack damage only, and these can have them all. I'd hate to see a newbie just throwing trans/alchs at random wands not knowing he could limit his search a little. At least if the information is there he can be pointed in that direction. It would be something added to the list of complicated shit this game has but I think it would help both casters and attack users.

@lethal - Btw, wand builds, due to their access to ele damage and crit can be really fun. I would like more skills but atm they are fairly powerful.

About staves, I don't think any casters at all use them except the two uniques
And something like 99,99% melee users don't use them either because of the difficulty to get a physical one
Combine it with high stats requirement and you make it really difficult for people to go for a different weapon
edit the title if possible, I was wondering what you were talking about but it's maybe because english isn't my native langage

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Moosifer a écrit :

Ya I don't think they would need a new list for each on the item data, just something to clarify these ones have caster only mods, these ones attack damage only, and these can have them all. I'd hate to see a newbie just throwing trans/alchs at random wands not knowing he could limit his search a little. At least if the information is there he can be pointed in that direction. It would be something added to the list of complicated shit this game has but I think it would help both casters and attack users.

True, very much agreed. In the case of wands, I find it discouraging that the only one-handed ranged attack weapon-type in the game has such a large affix pool, let alone that the only implicit property available is for spell damage.

In my opinion, if the developers were to rework them with no holds barred, it'd actually be ideal to go the extra mile and split them into two categories. Separate implicit modifiers, separate affix pools, and separate names, much like the distinction between sceptres and maces/staves and two-handed maces.

For casters they'd remain "wands" with the Spell Damage implicit modifier. For attackers they could be called "rods" or "batons" and have a critical strike related implicit modifier, though I'm not too sure. It'd be a drastic change, but one I think to be necessary in the long run unless another one-handed ranged attack weapon-type (such as a one-handed crossbow) comes around.

In recent Q&A session on Kripparian's stream Chris Wilson said that he's fine with how staves are right now. Number of mods possible to roll on staves compared to for example mauls was mentioned there so I assume Chris is fine with this point too.

Something to note is that spellcasters can use a lot of different weapons. With shield they can freely change between wands, daggers, scepters. With dual wielding they can still have 2 daggers or 2 scepters, or 1 scepter + 1 dagger or 2 wands.

Similar thing is for fighters. Early in the game you change your weapons a lot. You can use mauls or staves. You can use daggers, claws, swords or rapiers. You can use scepters or clubs.

Staves for spellcasters are something I don't like much and I think at least some more interesting passives should be available to them. However, potentially you can have 5 or 6 link in addition to your chest. A lot of your power comes through this. The fact that you will have to use more orbs for this amazing weapon is not a big deal.

Biggest problems is with getting proper physical mods on wands or daggers. Once you make base your build on physical wands you have to find a good one. Same with daggers. It's not a huge issue because it's again spending some more orbs on a lategame weapon to be incredible. For this 1 reason something may have to be changed. As for now it's not game breaking and it's all good enough to have fun.

About slower and faster staves, making them have different mods base on weapon speed is a terrible idea. Sweep does not care about weapon speed so when using it you want the slowest (and hardest hitting at same time) staff. Also slower weapons mean higher damage which may be important in stun-locking enemies. Sometimes it's better to hit slower but stun every time than hit faster and not always stun.

Chris recently also said they have been considering the following, which sounds similar to Moosifer's point -- where there are three mod pools, "caster" "hybrid" and "attacker". He merely mentioned this idea and it wasn't a commitment, but they are considering it at least. Though he also acknowledged there was a technical challenge for such a system...

I think this is how the system should work though. For daggers/staves/scepters the game should do the following set of things:

Roll a number between 1 and 3.

if N = 1 make said weapon hybrid
if N = 2 make said weapon physical
if N = 3 make said weapon magical

"Hybrid" contains all the current mods these weapons have currently.
"Caster" contains only caster mods, in combination with +resistance mods, and a few other miscellaneous things
"Attacker" contains only weapon-damage focused mods, such as added elemental damage, increased physical damage, et cetera

Then, the game makes more appropriate rolls, determining the mods on the item and their levels.

This would make hybrid dagger/staves/scepters more rare, meaning, it might be hard to find a staff which has high added fire damage AND increases the fire damage you deal, or a staff which increases physical damage and spell damage - but these kinds of weapons are ALREADY rare and I've never even seen a good one of these hybrid weapons for sale, ever. Most of these weapons end up being junk or at least, very difficult to roll well. Furthermore, there currently is almost no incentive to play a hybrid spellcaster/attacker. You focus on spells or you focus on attacks. You generally do not and really cannot do both. If it's GGG's intent to support such character building, they really should tighten up the mod pool of these items at least... and they should really introduce some hybrid passive skills, uniques, or active skill gems. Like, what about a passive skill which increases your attack AND cast speed. Surely, only a hybrid person could make much use of that! What about spell damage and physical damage? Critical strike chance and damage is the only 'universal' offensive stat, unless you're doing lots of elemental damage with your weapon, but in which case, you probably are stacking attack speed and not cast speed and you don't really see much of a point in not attacking to cast spells which are much slower.

Another solution to this is a little more laborious, but would work just as well. Just introduce more weapon base types. Some base daggers, scepters and staves are "biased" toward being magical or physical or hybrid. If you find a "Void Scepter" it has a much, much greater chance of getting spellcaster mods, while a "Royal Scepter" is much much more likely to get attack-based mods.