POE: a game of cheese?

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Imbalanxd a écrit :

If there are only so many ways to do things, then I will soon get bored of doing it that way.

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Imbalanxd a écrit :

A build which counters precisely one other build, and is completely useless against any build which isn't that specific one, is pointless.

So, you're looking for infinite ways to beat the game and a build which will effectively counter all builds?

Neither of those exists.

The only thing close to a cheese tactic I've seen in this game is teleporting back to town mid-fight to refill pots or heal.

There are plenty of viable builds in this game but it seems that half of them offend you because you find them cheap?

A lot of stuff in D2 was cheesy Absorb,MDR,Teleport,Smite(Grief RW),Desyncing of spells(to become invisible).I think on a whole POE will be a lot less cheesy.

Cheese?

Wtf, lol.

When did this new term come around? Lmao.

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Joshmans90 a écrit :

Cheese?

Wtf, lol.

When did this new term come around? Lmao.

In the 1996 game, Street Fighter Alpha 2 has a "cheese" victory icon, which shows you that this term was in wide usage for previous games in the genre. I recall "cheese" as being common in 1992-3 with the early Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter games. I don't think this was the origin of this meaning though, I believe it goes back to the 70s, and has a close link with the term which goes back to the 19th century describing cheesy fashion and behavior.

The term was also widely used in the Starcraft community, so much that they claim to have originated the term from a bastardization of the Korean word for "cheaters" (치즈 [chi zu]).

I prefer Gouda anyway.

Feta is better.

All puns aside, I really like the creamy Danish feta. Delicious.

PS

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/cheesy

Definition 1. This adjective is not owned by video games, sorry. As with everything else, the Internet generation only borrowed it and infused it with their own...cheesiness.

Now if I have to make a post as to why Path of Exile doesn't fit this adjective, I will, but I honestly have better things to do and so do you. Like playing it to see why.

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Charan a écrit :

the Internet generation only borrowed it and infused it with their own...cheesiness.

Rofl

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Imbalanxd a écrit :

They can't be countered in a feasible way. A build which counters precisely one other build, and is completely useless against any build which isn't that specific one, is pointless. Chances are you aren't going to come up against that build in the vast majority of cases, and are just going to be destroyed.

but didn't you say before that if it comes down to 3 or so builds then everyone will play those? so if you get a hard-counter to 1 of those builds you will auto-win ezmode 1/3 of your matches then what if you can win another 30% of your games elsewhere you are above 50% winrate.

in one instance you argued that everyone will play the top build, then just now you argue that the vast majority of people wont play that build and so the counter to the top build will be weak. which is wrong. i'm thinking pvp will be a lot like magic the gathering in a sense. there will be a flavour of the month which will be the strongest build (until it gets nerfed and something else takes its place) and it will be most played. like mtg, the second most popular builds will be a mix of 2nd best build and the best counters to builds 1 and 2. builds 1 and 2 play very well against anything 'rogue' (not in meta-game), approximately even against each other, poorly against their counter, and well against an opponent who is countering another build. i like these odds and so does everyone else. when less rogue builds are played (which is what you are arguing will happen and i agree with) the stronger the counter builds get. until the point where the counter-build is seeing 3 or 4 opponents they counter in a row and are roflstomping the majority of people.

the point is - people learn, meta-games change, builds get nerfed, counters are found, rogues will always exist, the game will never be perfectly balanced, you gotta keep up with the jones's or you will lose, you will be out of the meta-game without even realising it.

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Float a écrit :

i'm thinking pvp will be a lot like magic the gathering in a sense. there will be a flavour of the month which will be the strongest build (until it gets nerfed and something else takes its place) and it will be most played. like mtg, the second most popular builds will be a mix of 2nd best build and the best counters to builds 1 and 2. builds 1 and 2 play very well against anything 'rogue' (not in meta-game), approximately even against each other, poorly against their counter, and well against an opponent who is countering another build. i like these odds and so does everyone else. when less rogue builds are played (which is what you are arguing will happen and i agree with) the stronger the counter builds get. until the point where the counter-build is seeing 3 or 4 opponents they counter in a row and are roflstomping the majority of people.

Ok, but you realise the scenario you outlined there is completely devoid of any notion of player skill right? I mean, the individual player doesn't feature any where in the equation.
Are you playing the flavour of the month build against a standard other build?
-> you win
Is someone playing the counter to your FOTM build?
-> they win

The player might as well not even be there. Its basically a lucky draw of builds, which is what happens when a game becomes entirely build dependant, rather than player skill dependant, which results in cheese builds emerging.

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Imbalanxd a écrit :

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Float a écrit :

i'm thinking pvp will be a lot like magic the gathering in a sense. there will be a flavour of the month which will be the strongest build (until it gets nerfed and something else takes its place) and it will be most played. like mtg, the second most popular builds will be a mix of 2nd best build and the best counters to builds 1 and 2. builds 1 and 2 play very well against anything 'rogue' (not in meta-game), approximately even against each other, poorly against their counter, and well against an opponent who is countering another build. i like these odds and so does everyone else. when less rogue builds are played (which is what you are arguing will happen and i agree with) the stronger the counter builds get. until the point where the counter-build is seeing 3 or 4 opponents they counter in a row and are roflstomping the majority of people.

Ok, but you realise the scenario you outlined there is completely devoid of any notion of player skill right? I mean, the individual player doesn't feature any where in the equation.
Are you playing the flavour of the month build against a standard other build?
-> you win
Is someone playing the counter to your FOTM build?
-> they win

The player might as well not even be there. Its basically a lucky draw of builds, which is what happens when a game becomes entirely build dependant, rather than player skill dependant, which results in cheese builds emerging.

i purposely kept individual skill out of the equation because once that comes in, say, when someone knows their build isn't the best but is really good with it, then your notion of cheese is completely thrown out the window. Why? Because if the game comes down to skill, then the game is a good, balanced game. I did this to maintain a conversational ground upon which we could build. the equation gets massive when individual skill becomes involved and things like APM required to be able to perform well with certain builds. I think you realise that the larger the equation, the less cheese matters. cheese becomes a sub-group of builds that you just have to deal with. mostly they would be weak, lame builds that have a 1/3 chance of one shotting you or something really dumb like that. then its just another part of the game you have to consider and makes the game all the more interesting. whether or not they are in the meta-game or the rogue-likes will tell you if you should be worried about them or not. you can't win every game. you can say i have a really good build that ON AVERAGE wins about 70% of the games i play. 30% of the games are either hard-counters, cheesey builds who manage to fulfill their cheesey strategy, people with equal builds with better skill, or people with builds that simply have a higher percentage win rate. understand however that the hard-counterers and cheesers may have an overall worse percentage win rate. but u dont want to play the higher percentage build because there are more haters and it is generally more well known and countered. also it has a higher chance of losing its FOTM status thru nerfs.

the game is a real game. you will not 'break' this game.